Oct. 18, 2024

The Allegorical Method

The Allegorical Method

A discussion about the allegorical method of biblical interpretation.

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A discussion about the allegorical method of biblical interpretation.

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

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the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. I want to

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leave the word good out of this again. See I'm

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back to saying I can't use the word good, So

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I'm not going to say good evening. I'm just going

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to say welcome. And you know it started off so simple, right, Hey,

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when is an ax not an ax? And when is

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Israel not Israel? And when is land not land? I mean,

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those are very innocent questions, right, very simple. When is

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an axe not an ax? When is Israel not Israel?

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And when is land not land? Very simple questions, right,

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And it has everything to do with biblical hermoneutics, everything

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to do with how we interpret the Bible. So I

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threw out those questions, and I was ready to have

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these questions answered because we were going to listen to

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someone doing a series on how to study the Bible

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explain to us the allegorical method of Bible study, or

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the I should state it this way, the allegorical method

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of Bible interpretation, not necessarily Bible study, but Bible interpretation,

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because study is more observational than it is being interpretation. Okay,

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but so we thought Okay, in my mind, it's very simple.

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Let's listen to the allegorical method be explained. We'll take

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those principles, and then we'll look back at a passage

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that we've been struggling with and maybe we'll find some answers.

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And by the end, we didn't find answers. We found,

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I hate to say it, almost a complete misrepresentation of

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the allegorical method, which is kind of frustrating for me

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because I don't agree with the allegorical method, but now

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I'm here, I'm almost defending the allegorical method because of

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the accusations being made that anyone who holds to the

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allegorical method of Biblical interpretation they do it on purpose

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because they want to basically corrupt the text and they

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want to make it say what they want it to say,

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like almost as if they're evil, And I'm like, whoa,

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because someone has a different hermonudic than you, they're evil

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and you're going to go after their intent. I mean,

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it was crazy. So there's nothing good about now having

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to come back live on the air and try to

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turn this into something positive. So I'm not going to

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start with good evening. I'm not going to start With that,

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I'm just going to say welcome. I will tell you this.

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It is Thursday, October seventeenth, twenty twenty four. It is

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currently eight thirty five pm Central Time, and I am

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coming to you live from the Theology Central Studio located

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right here in Abilene, Texas. Now I would be I mean,

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there is major baseball playoffs going on the Yankees just

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one and extra innings, and the Dodgers are playing, So

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I mean I would rather possibly be doing that, right

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would I mean? It's new music night. I would rather

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be maybe getting ready to what new music is going

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to drop. I would rather be reading. There's a lot

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of things I would rather be doing. But I feel

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like I have to be here to try to make

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something good out of out what turned so so negative.

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And I hate I hate when a broadcast ends in

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a very negative way.

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I really do.

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I know. People think, well, you do sermon reviews, you

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want it to be negative. No, I don't. I do

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sermon reviews because I listened to sermons, and so I

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typically review what I've not listened to so that we

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can listen to it together and hopefully have a positive

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and uplifting experience. Oh but that did not work. So

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let me put this all together. Let me explain why

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we are here. Are you ready? That's very simple, It's

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very easy. I just ied to review a sermon that

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the text of that sermon was Second King's Chapter six,

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verses one through seven. And as soon as I saw

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the title, the title had something about don't lose your

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axe head or something along that line, don't lose your

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axe or something about that. But it definitely used the

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idea of the ax belonging to us, belonging to you,

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the axe has something to do with us, right, And

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immediately when I saw the title had ax or axe

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head in the title, and me I knew that, okay,

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taking the axe head, it's applying it to me. And

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if it's talking about an axe, it's almost I can

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almost predict the text is going to be Second King's

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Chapter six. Well, it turns out the sermon was on

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Second King's Chapter six, and it was very much proven

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that they decided to take the ax and make it

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all about us, and they basically just obliterated the historical narrative. Basically,

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what they did is Second King's Chapter six is a

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story about a lost axehead, and the axehead represents, now,

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can't It just kept representing different things. They never would

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just settle on one thing. It represents our fellowship, It

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represents our effectiveness in doing God's work. It uh, it

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represents our passion and our zeal for God. They just

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kept adding to it. And even though, well, the axehead

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and the story is borrowed, they didn't. Then they tried

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to explain the borrowed, but only explained the borrow It

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just became maddening. But what was so frustrating is clearly

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what was being utilized is they were taking a text

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very much a historical narrative and immediately going with this

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represents this, and this represents this, and this represents this,

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which is very akin to, very similar to what we

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would refer to as the allegorical method of Biblical interpretation. Now,

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the church that was preaching it, I can guarantee you

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would say they are opposed to the allegorical method. They

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reject the allegorical method. But there they were utilizing at

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least some of the principles, some of the ideas in

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their preaching. And so sometimes the allegorical method is disguised

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as being something well, I'm not you know, I'm not

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using the allegorical method. I'm just saying, well, this represents this,

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and this represents this. Well, if this represents this and

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this represents this, then what are you doing. You can

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change the wording, but you're saying that what it appears

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to be it actually is something else, which is very

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similar to the allegorical method. So let me read Second

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Kings Chapter six, verses one through seven. We've read this

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now countless times. We're gonna just do a little. I

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don't know how long I'm going. I'm gonna go until

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I feel like my brain can can relax for the

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rest of the evening. That's what I'm hoping to do,

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all right, this is from my own mental health. Are

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you ready? Second King's chapter six, starting in verse one,

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and the sons of the prophets said, unto Elisha, behold now,

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the place where we dwell with THEE is too straight

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for us. It's too small, it's too cramped, it's too crowded.

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We need more space. First two, let us go, we

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pray thee unto Jordan, and take thence every man a beam,

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and let us make us a place there where we

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may dwell. And he answered, go ye, all right, this

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place is too crowded. We need more room. We want

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to go here, and we want to build a bigger place. Fine,

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you can go. And one said, be content, I pray

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thee and go with thy servants. And he answered, I

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will go. So they asked Elisha to come along with them.

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So he went with them verse four. And when they

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came to the Jordan, they cut down wood. But as

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one was felling a beam, his axehead, or let me

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read this correctly. But as one was felling a beam,

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the axe head fell into the water. And he cried.

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And I said, alas, master, for it was borrowed. And

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the men of God said, where fell it? And he

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shoot him the place? And he cut down a stick

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and cast it in thither, and the iron did swim.

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Therefore said he take it upon thee, and he put

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on his hand, and he put out his hand, and

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he took it. Seven verses. Seven verses that have been

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used in thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon

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thousands of hours of preachy, where sermon after sermon takes

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this text and goes full blown allegorical, even if they

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don't want to say it's allegorical, because all of a

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sudden Well, the work represents this, the wood represents this,

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the axe head represents this. Losing the axe head represents this,

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The water represents this. Putting the stick in the water

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represents this. The ox head floating represents this. And they

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just just throw in what it represents. Do they justify

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that it represents this. No, maybe they'll throw out a

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couple of cross references, and then everyone sitting in the congregation,

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everyone's sitting in the pews, are like, Wow, this is awesome. Wow,

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this represents this, This represents it. That's good preaching, pastor.

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I've never seen that in the text, and you've never

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seen it in the text because it's not in the text.

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It's being imposed on the text. It may preach good,

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it may be interesting, it may be fascinating, it may

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be spiritual uplifting for you, but it's not as anything.

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It doesn't have anything to do with the actual text.

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So we reviewed a sermon that again just went crazy

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with it and say this represents this, this represents this.

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There was no justification, there was no explanation, just dogmatically

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asserted this is what it represents. And basically, if you

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disagreed with that, basically you were wrong, was the attitude.

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Then we listened to a sermon that was like, well,

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they took it much more literal, and they gave us

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a sense of hope. Right. Well, then today I saw

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a message that's part of a series on how to

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study the Bible, and it was about the allegorical method.

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So my thought was, let's listen to it. They'll explain

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the allegorical method, and we'll take those principles and we'll

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show you how those principles are. What people are doing

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with Second Kings chapter six, even though they say they

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don't use the allegorical method, how that it would be fascinating,

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how that it would be interesting, how that it would

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be beneficial, And then that just turned into insanity. Their

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description of the allegorical method, on one hand, was somewhat

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correct when they were reading from a book, but then

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when they started trying to talk about it, they clearly

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don't understand what the allegorical method is. Next thing, you know,

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it's a rant against Calvinism and that Calvinism uses the

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allegorical method because they don't go with the word all

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meaning all, even though the word that has nothing to

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do with the allegorical method. That's about the meaning of

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a word, linguistics and the textual context and definition of work.

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And then the next thing, you know, Calvinists gets their

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messages from the clouds and from the what is any

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It was just insane, and so I was I've just

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been frustrated all day. So here's what we're going to do.

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We're going to do a little work on Second Kings

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Chapter six, and a little work well, well, actually we're

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going to do everything is going to be a discussion

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about the allegorical method of Bible interpretation, right, but will

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utilize Second King six at least at the beginning. All right, Now,

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here's what I want to say. Every single Christian, every

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single Christian, has to accept and acknowledge this reality. You

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may not like it, it may make you uncomfortable, but

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it is a fact two thousand years of church history

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and Christians at this very moment still do not agree

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on how to interpret the Bible. Forget all of the

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different interpretations, forget the fact that we don't agree on

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anything philologically, doctrinally, and it's just it's just it's spiritual anarchy.

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Everyone just interprets the text that's right in their own eyes.

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But the reality is we don't even agree on which

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method of hermeneutics, which system of hermautics we should even utilize.

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And even those who say they agree on the system,

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people will violate the system whenever they want. They'll say,

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we do not agree with the allegorical method, and then

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the next minute they're using the allegorical method. As we

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see with Second Kings chapter six, over and over and

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over and over door and I can go to other

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passages this when Jesus is on in the boat and

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the storm comes, right, how do how does pastors interpret that? Well, oh,

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this is I know, it's about Jesus and the boat

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and there's a storm, but the storms represent the troubles

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and trials in life, and the boat represents our life

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and we're going across the ocean. And the next thing

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you know, they just kind of go full blown allegorical

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and everyone, everyone in the pew is sitting in the

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pew will be like, amen, oh that was so great.

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Jesus is in the boat with me during what are

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you talking about? That has nothing to do with that?

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And I could give you example after example where people

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do these crazy things. David killing Goliath is how do

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we slay the giants in our lives. I mean, it's

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just it's just a free for all. People read the

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Bible and just make up things, and that's what happens.

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So we just got to be willing to acknowledge that

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fact that Christians don't even agree on how to interpret

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the Bible, and they don't agree on any interpretation. But

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here's the frustration. Even though we don't agree on how

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to interpret the Bible, even though they're very little agreement

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and actual interpreting the Bible, everyone thinks that they're right.

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Everyone thinks their interpretation is right, and everyone else's interpretation

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is wrong. It's like, I interpret the Bible this way,

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therefore I'm right, you're wrong, and so everyone thinks they're

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right in their own eyes. It's an absolute free for all.

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It's chaos, it's anarchy. And all you have to do

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to really grasp how bad the problem can be is

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just listen to countless sermons. Sometimes you'll listen to countless

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sermons and just like I just don't understand just listening

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to the sermons and reading things about Second Kings chapter six,

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verses one through seven, I don't even know. I have

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no clue what's going on. I have no clue, and

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I know that makes us uncomfortable, But we have to

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be willing to acknowledge that. He said, well, what should

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we do with that information? Probably should humble us, Probably

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should make us a little maybe a little bit more cautious.

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And being so arrogant and judgmental and condemning and being

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so dogmatic that we have found the corner on truth

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right now. At the same time, you have to you

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got to argue for how you believe the text reads.

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You have to argue for interpretation. But I think some

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things we can be pretty dogmatic about. But I think,

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but I even then, though, we have to be willing,

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no matter how dogmatic we are at any given moment,

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we have to be willing at any given moment to

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change our position and to rethink it and to reconsider it,

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and to continue to try to find the truth. Right now,

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let's do this. When I see Second Kings chapter six,

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verses one through seven, and we start talking about all

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of the different interpretive methods and systems used to understand

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Second Kings chapter six, verses one through seven, I am

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transported back to when I was a student at the

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Family Radio School, of the Bible. Harold Camping was in charge. Now,

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if you know anything about Harold Camping, I mean to

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say this as nice as I can. He lost his

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ever living mind. Next thing you know, he's predicting that

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the world was going to end in nineteen ninety four.

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Then he said the church age was over. Everyone has

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to leave their local church. If you stay in your

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local church, you've taken the mark of the beast. And

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it just got more and more bizarre and it got crazy.

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Now ultimately he had a stroke. He kind of repented

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to some level, apologized for a lot of the wrong

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predictions that he gave, and he ultimately passed away. And

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then Family Radio has now kind of transformed and well

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you can go see what Family Radio is today. But

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I was there during all of this. Now, before he

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started kind of losing his mind, it was very much

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a school that very much taught basically reformed theology. But

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he had a very specific system of hermeneutics when it

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comes to interpreting the Bible. And you really could trace

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if you wanted to see where his idea comes from,

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really goes back to origin, if we go back into

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early church history origin, and it also if you pick

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up the Catholic Catechism, or if you look up some

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of the documents put out by popes on biblical interpretation.

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I had to write a paper on one of the

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documents that they released when I was working on a

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degree in Catholic theology. It sounds very similar to what

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would be presented even in the Catholic Church, right, that

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there was a system, and that basic system of hermeneutics

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was very present even within the Reformed world if we

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go back into church history. But Harold Camping's interpretation of

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Second Kings chapter six, verses one through seven, in a

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book known as First Principles of Bible Study follows his

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broader hermeneutical approach, which emphasizes multiple levels of meaning within scripture.

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Multiple levels of meaning within scripture. Now that's key that

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you see scripture and you see the passage, but there's

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multiple levels of meaning. Here's level one, here's level two,

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here's level three, here's level four. Right, just giving you

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different numbers. They're just but there's multiple levels. Now. Some

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people like that idea, right because they can say, oh,

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you're a young Christian, or you're not as spiritual as

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I have. I have found level number four. Right, I

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have found level number five because I've really studied it

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in depth. Right, you see how this could lead to

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a little bit of spiritual pride. But okay, all right,

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this is very important. Harold Camping often focused on a

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typo logical or allegorical reading of biblical events. Did you

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hear that typological or allegorical? Now a lot of Christians

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love the idea of typology. Oh now, they say, They

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will say, I don't do the allegorical method, I just

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do typology. Well, I know those can be separated, but

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they're very much more linked together than I'll think a

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lot of people want to argue. I know people will say, no, no,

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you're not being accurate. I understand that you can draw

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a distinction. But when you go to the Bible and

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say well, this is a type of this, and this

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is a type of this, and this is a type

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of this, what you're saying is, well, the Bible has

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one level of meaning, it's a historical narrative, but there's

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another level of meaning because it serves as a type.

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This represents this, and this represents this. Now, at times,

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is typology used in the Bible? I will say yes,

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you know when typology is being used. When you read

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something in the Old Testament and then you go to

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the New Testament and they take that story and they

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apply it to something else. They take the Passover and

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apply it to Christ. Well, now I've got a textual

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reason for now going back to the Old Testament saying, hmm,

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when I study the Passover, this is a type of Christ,

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because the New Testament tells me so. If the New

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Testament tells you this represents this, then you have a

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scriptural basis for understanding it from a typo, logical, or

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maybe even an allegorical way. But if the Bible does

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not tell you that it represents this and represents this,

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then it's just your own imagination or something you read

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someone saying somewhere in some commentary. That does not make

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it true. Just because it may seem to work, just

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because it's interesting, just because it makes everyone loves your sermon,

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does not mean it's a type. It's a type when

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the Bible shows you it's a type. If the Bible

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doesn't show you it's a type, you know what you

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can say. You could do this. You know I was

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reading this text and I know it's a historical narrative.

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But I found some things interesting. Let's say if we

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were looking at Second Kings chapter six. We'll go back

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to Second King chapter six. You know, I found it

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interesting that it says that these men were in a

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straight that to dwell with the is too straight for us. Well,

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you know, the word straight is used this way, this way,

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this way, this way. I wonder if there's some kind

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of connection here, Like now you're using other scripture to

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try to maybe make an argument. Right, Well, you know

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it says that there were chopping down wood, or it

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says that the acts, well, the axe is used this

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many times and this to Now if you can draw

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some kind of textual but there you cannot be dogmatic.

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What you can say is I just found this interesting

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that this and this, even though there's no textual basis

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for connecting them, it does seem kind of interesting. That's see,

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that's okay, that's Bible study. That's studying. That's doing odd.

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You're just making an observation. Hey, this word used here,

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it's used here. I think there's a possible connection. I

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don't know. But see that's different is when pastors are like,

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this person represents Christ and this represents Christ and this

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represents and you got nothing. He got literally zero in

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the New Testament that makes any of those connections or

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any claim. Well, then Howard who gave you the right

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to make that connection? Now? Harold Camping was famous for this.

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It was typo logical, it was allegorical. So you could

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read anything and he'd be like, we'll see that represents this. Now.

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The one thing I will say about Harold Camping, and

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I think I can say this dogmatically, not only being

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a student and the school I probably listened and read

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everything the man. I probably listened to everything the man

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every taught and read every book he ever wrote. He

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typically tried to at least offer some scriptural justification. He

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would try to offer some and it would sound really good, right,

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it would sound really good. Now. The reason it would

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sound really good and I didn't understand this immediately at

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the time, but it would sound really good because he

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would only go to cross references that seemed to fit right.

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He'd be like, hey, you see this, well over here,

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it's used this way. See that fits perfectly. But if

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you would just take the time to look up every

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reference to that particular thing, you'd be like, but it's

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also used thirteen other ways, so you ignored the other thirteen.

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You ignored twelve of them to pick this one and say,

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see there's a correlation. It sounds good, it preaches good,

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but that's just you picking and choosing versus that seemed

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to fit well. Ocean represents hell. We'll see this scripture here,

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see it works. But if we look up water or ocean,

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does it always mean that you see? It can become

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very very very very questionable. And you would have to

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be someone who looked up every reference to every single thing. Now,

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sometimes I thought Herold Camping brought out very interesting points.

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There's times he did not, but it was very much

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typological or allegorical, And I think sometimes typeology or typological

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and allegorical are more related than people would like to admit.

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They want to separate them, saying I don't use allegory,

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I use typology, and I see what it really represents. Again,

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if you don't have the New Testament telling you it

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represents it, you're just making it up, or you're getting

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it from a book, or you're getting it from a sermon,

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and you're just not telling people where you got it from.

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And Second Kings, Chapter six verses one through seven. Harold

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Camping interpreted the floating axehead as a symbolic lesson about

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salvation and God's intervention in the believer's life. So Harold

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Camping will second King's chapter six. So basically it was

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something like this, No, I'm paraphrasing. It was something like this.

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We try our best to work our way to salvation.

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We try to we're going to keep the law. We're

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gonna be good people. But if you try to work

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and you try to keep the law, you know, the

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only thing that's going to happen is we're going to

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be broken by the law. Something is going to break.

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You know why, because we cannot keep the law of

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God perfectly because we are sinners. We are sinners by nature,

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and we fell God internally, externally and thought word. Indeed,

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we're going to fell God. So while we're working, that's

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the cutting down the trees. Sooner or later we'll break

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ourself on the law. There's the axe head. It comes loose,

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it falls into the water. The water represents hell, and

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we sink in a sense, down to hell in our sin.

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We have died. We die in our sin. But the

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stick put in the water that's Jesus Christ dying on

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the cross, and by his death beryl resurrection. We are

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resurrected to life and we're taken out of the grave,

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We're taken out of hell, and we are now used

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for God's glory. That's a very simplistic way of understanding it. Now,

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according to one source that described it, it described it

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this way. He saw Now, this is how one source

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describes Harold Camping's interpretation. I just went from my memory

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because I remember having to write a paper on this.

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He saw the lost axehead as representing humanity's lost spiritual condition,

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particularly due to sin Elisha's miraculous recovery of the axehead,

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is viewed as a symbol of God's power to restore

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what was lost spiritually. This could refer to the regeneration

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and salvation offered by Christ and Camping's framework, the passage

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is not just about a physical miracle, but also illustrates

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deeper spiritual truths regarding redemption and restoration. Now, this goes

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with Camping's idea that there were multiple levels. You had

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the historical level, and you had all but you always

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had this one level that basically you see the gospel

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in every passage. Like, you can take any passage and

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you can make it about the Gospel. You can make

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it about sinnersjudgment, Hell and salvation, and you could just

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read it into any passage. Now, see that sounds so spiritual.

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You can get everyone in church to say amen to that. Oh,

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the Gospel is on every page. Amen. But that sounds

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so good. And you may even make it sound good,

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and it may even sound like it works. Here's the problem.

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You're imposing it on the text. Unless there's somewhere in

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the Bible that interprets that text as being about the

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Gospel or picturing salvation, you're just imposing it. Camping's broader

459
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.880
principle in his book, Stretch stresses that scripture often contains

460
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.559
multiple layers of meaning, and he applies this to many narratives,

461
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.440
including this one. He suggests that events in the Old

462
00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:52.880
Testament often prefigure spiritual realities under the New Covenant. However,

463
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:57.960
his method off of interpretation has been critiqued for being

464
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:05.240
overly all agoor goal and speculative. Is speculative. It's allegorical

465
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:08.279
and speculative. What does that mean. It's it's speculation. You're

466
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.960
just speculative. That's I guess that's the right that's the

467
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.359
right way to say it. It's speculative. Okay, I'm sorry,

468
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:17.920
can't speak correct. It's allegorical and speculative. It's you're you're

469
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.039
you're just speculating. You're just guessing, and speculative is not

470
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.720
the way to do hermoneutics. You don't just go to

471
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:28.880
the text and it's it's it's kind of you're just

472
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:31.720
it's speculative. You're just kind of guessing. You're just kind

473
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.039
of reading and making it up. Now, you can make

474
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.240
it sound good. The the better look, the more authoritative

475
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:43.480
the Bible teacher can be, the more interesting he can

476
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.119
present it, the more creative he can be, and how

477
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.000
he structures it, he can he can have people on

478
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.039
the edge of their seat and he can be and

479
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:56.000
people will be like, I have never seen this before. Wow,

480
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:03.519
this is awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. Speculative, it's imaginary, it's

481
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.240
made up. It's being placed on the text. It may

482
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.480
sound good, but sounding good is not the way we

483
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:15.119
judge the teaching on the Bible. It's based off what

484
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:22.039
the text says. But again, allegorical and speculative critics argue

485
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.519
that while there may be spiritual lessons in the text.

486
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.400
It is important to anchor interpretations in the historical and

487
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:32.200
immediate context of the passage. Let me read it again.

488
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.319
It is important to anchor the interpretations in the historical

489
00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:41.799
and immediate context of the passage. Your interpretation must be

490
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:48.720
anchored in the historical and immediate context, not the quote

491
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:56.599
unquote spiritual, speculative and imaginary historical. It must be there

492
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:00.240
and context. That's what it must be anchored too. Now

493
00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:03.279
here's the problem. When you anchor it to the history

494
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.799
and the context, it may not be as fun to preach.

495
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:12.319
It may not be as exciting. I mean, what's more exciting? Ooh,

496
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.160
Second Kings, Chapter six. Guys, I know you've read this

497
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.319
a million times, but you know what you've missed so

498
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.599
much because it's deeper than what you thought. You thought.

499
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:23.200
It's just a story about a guy who lost an

500
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:25.480
ax head that he borrowed, and he was upset because

501
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:28.279
he lost this thing that's very valuable, and then through

502
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:32.920
this miracle, he gets it back and he saved the day. No, no, no,

503
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:38.039
this is a picture of salvation. And everybody's like ooh,

504
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:43.759
now it sounds spiritual, sounds godly, but it's allegorical and

505
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:50.200
speculative unless you've got some good cross referencing that would

506
00:30:50.279 --> 00:31:00.200
lend credence to it. Harold Camping's interpretation of Second Kings

507
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.880
focuses on a deeper spiritual meaning and often use this typology.

508
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:11.440
If you look at basically how he would approach this,

509
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.759
he would do it this way. When it comes to

510
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:18.000
typology and allegory, Camping often drew from passages that reflected

511
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:22.079
themes of redemption and restorations, such as Luke Chapter fifteen,

512
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.400
verses four through seven, parables of the Lost Sheep, likely

513
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.079
to symbolize how God seeks and restores what is lost,

514
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:32.960
similar to how the axehead was restored. So what he

515
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.319
would do. He would go to these parables where God

516
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:38.599
seeks to save that which is lost, and the axe

517
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:43.240
head was lost. See see see how they fit who

518
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:45.240
the axe head was lost? Wait, now, let's go to

519
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:47.759
the New Testament. Jesus comes to seek and to save

520
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.000
that which has lost. There's the lost coin, there's the

521
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:53.240
loss of you know sheep, there's the loss this, there's

522
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:57.000
the los see see And everybody's like, oh, yes see

523
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.079
see he did cross referencing. He did ross referencing. It

524
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:06.000
has to be true. That's just randomly connecting passages together.

525
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:09.119
That's not cross referencing. Has to have there has to

526
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.759
be an actual connection. You just don't be like, well,

527
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:15.279
the lost an axe head, so that applies to that

528
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.400
connects to any verse in the Bible that talks about

529
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:21.119
something being lost. And because there's these other passages about

530
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.160
him seeking and saving what is lost, then we're just

531
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.160
gonna immediately connect it to a lost axe head just

532
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:28.440
because the idea of being lost is said. Now. See,

533
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.599
you can be tempted to do that, I understand, but

534
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:38.680
there's no actual textual basis for doing so. Romans five,

535
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.960
eight through ten. This could represent the restoration of sinners

536
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.960
through God's grace, reflecting the recovery of the axe head.

537
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:46.440
So then he would go to Romans five.

538
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.839
If you go to Romans five. Here, God, I'm gonna

539
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:49.480
mark this.

540
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:52.799
I'm gonna mark second King six. If you go to

541
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:59.920
Romans five. But God commended his love towards us that

542
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:02.720
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us much

543
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:04.920
more than being now justified by his blood, We shall

544
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.559
be saved from the wrath through him. For if when

545
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:09.880
we were enemies. We were reconciled to God by the

546
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:13.000
death of his son. Much more being reconciled, we shall

547
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:16.039
be saved by his life. Jesus died while we were sinners. Well,

548
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:19.920
we were lost, we were dead, we were submerged under

549
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.640
the wrath of God. He died for us, and that's

550
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:28.279
the stick being put in the water. Then he may

551
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.359
say something like Ezekiel thirty six twenty six. The promise

552
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:33.279
of God giving a new heart and a new spirit

553
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:37.279
might be connected allegorically to the restoration and a spiritual sins. Now, again,

554
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.799
what do you do when they go to Ezekiel thirty six.

555
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:43.880
We've talked about this a million times. Now, Israel isn't Israel,

556
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.640
and land isn't land. So but you go there and

557
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:49.680
you just grab it, and then I'll go back to

558
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:54.759
Second King's chapter six and you just start connecting things. Now,

559
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:57.839
the reason this is so effective in preaching is because

560
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:00.799
the people sitting in the pew you're camping, would you know,

561
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:03.359
have you turned to all these passages? So you're turning

562
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:07.160
this passage and you're turning to this passage. There was

563
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:11.960
no showmanship under Camping's teaching, kind of very monotone. He

564
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.719
wasn't dramatic, but so you just felt like, I'm getting

565
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.239
the Bible. You're not getting some you know, big show

566
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:23.000
and movie clips and a drama, and you know, a

567
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:27.559
concert is just this older gentleman in a very monotone voice,

568
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.039
and you're going from scripture to scripture to scripture to

569
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.519
scripture to scripture to scripture to scripture. By the time

570
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.400
he's done, you've probably looked at forty cross references and

571
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:39.320
you're like, wow, we studied the Bible. How you just

572
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:49.320
randomly connected dots. So he would use typology and allegory.

573
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:51.320
He would go to the symbolism of water. He did

574
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:56.480
this constantly. Water often symbolizes chaos, death, or judgment, and

575
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.880
Biblical typology see this is what see it fell into

576
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:02.599
the water. Well, this is chaos, this is death, this

577
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:05.280
is judgment. He would quote things like Isaiah forty three

578
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.079
to two. This speaks of passing through waters but not

579
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.440
being overwhelmed, which might serve to support the idea of

580
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:15.559
God's intervention and life threatening or troubling situations. Exodus fourteen

581
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:17.880
twenty one through thirty one, The crossing of the Red

582
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.199
Sea another instance where God miraculously controls water to save

583
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:25.360
his people might be paralleled in this miraculous retrieval of

584
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.440
the axe head. So water is used. Here is judgment

585
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:32.280
because it drowned. You got a Genesis six. How did

586
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.119
God judge the world a flood? How did he destroy

587
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.079
the Egyptian army? Water? And so he may go water

588
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:41.800
is chaos, water is judgment, water is hell. Well, we

589
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:45.639
submerge into this chaos, this death, this judgment, but we

590
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:52.400
are redeemed by Jesus Christ, redeeming what is lost. He

591
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:55.159
may go to John chapter six thirty nine through forty.

592
00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:57.920
Jesus refers to not losing anything that the Father has

593
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.800
given him, which could be metaphorically linked the restoration of

594
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.800
the lost axe head. Camping typically viewed such passages as

595
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:09.599
hidden meanings that point to spiritual truths about salvation, restoration,

596
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:16.079
or divine intervention. And that's how someone would use the

597
00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:22.960
type of topological allegorical allegorical. It's subjective, it's it's it's

598
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:33.119
so it can sound so spiritual, though, and we have

599
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.480
to be on the lookout for that type of thing

600
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.800
in preaching. We have to be. And so what was

601
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:41.320
so frustrating is when you're listening to a series on

602
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.199
how to study the Bible, and they're going to tell

603
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:45.280
you about the allegorical method, and they just turned into

604
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:48.360
a rant about Calvinism. And then they just accuse people

605
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:52.199
using the allegorical method of basically, you know, doing it

606
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:56.000
on purpose and they have evil intent. Look, I don't

607
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:59.639
believe Camping had evil intent with his methodology. I don't.

608
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.119
I believe he was flawed. I believe he was wrong.

609
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:07.000
It sounded good, it sounded godly. I definitely got into

610
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:11.960
it to a certain degree. But it also is rooted

611
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:16.119
very much in church history, going back to origin, and

612
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:21.000
it became the dominant interpretive method and having different levels

613
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.559
of meaning. I mean, that was common throughout all of

614
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.840
church history. It's still very present. Even if I open

615
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.719
up the Catholic Catechism and look on sections in the

616
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:33.920
Catechism about how to interpret the Bible, those same layers

617
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.639
are there. It is common in church history. Camping was

618
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:42.000
very much rooted in Church history in his hermeneutical method.

619
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:45.119
Others strongly disagree with that method. But the point is is,

620
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:48.239
I don't think anyone has al terror or motives or

621
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:51.840
evil is working for Satan. It's just they're approaching the

622
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:54.760
scripture one way and this person is approaching scripture the

623
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:57.639
other way. Now, on one hand, that drives me crazy,

624
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:05.320
because we should all approach it the same way. And

625
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.840
let me make it very clear, Camping's approach was fascinating

626
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:12.360
to listen to. Every time he would teach, I'd be like, Okay,

627
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.360
where are we going? All right? Ooh, this is gonna

628
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.119
be fine. Okay, all right, So and so I'd have

629
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:21.719
my notes down. This represents this, this represents this, This

630
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:25.480
represents this, this represents this, this represents this, and I'd

631
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:27.559
be like, how is he seeing this? How will I

632
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.000
ever be able to teach this way? This is crazy,

633
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:33.599
This is fascinating, this is awesome. I'm like, I'm gonna

634
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:36.079
save every one of these notes and use it constantly.

635
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:40.639
And it showed up in my preaching early on. But

636
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:46.400
at some point I had to go, hmm, this just

637
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:57.119
isn't working. This is just problematic. Now, typological, allegorical, very much,

638
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:04.599
very subjective, right, very much linked together. So let's do this.

639
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.199
Let's just and I'm not going to go too long here.

640
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.920
I just wanted to get the how Camping would have

641
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:14.039
handled it right, and and people would could criticize camping,

642
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:16.119
but then do you criticize the other sermon that we

643
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:20.199
listened to where the acts had represented fellowship or power

644
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.079
or this or that, Like it just became and guess what,

645
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:26.679
and campings and and camp and and and no matter

646
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:29.880
which way you go, it's all just very subjective. That's

647
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:34.239
the thing. It's subjective. It's it's it's just not based

648
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:37.280
on anything other than the person's own imagination. If you're

649
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.280
going to condemn one, you're going to condemn the other.

650
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:43.840
To me, any approach that goes to a text like

651
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.199
Second King's chapter six, and it's just start saying this

652
00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:49.480
represents this, and this represents this. You've got to give

653
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:55.320
me something solid for your reasoning other than I was

654
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:59.320
looking at a philological discussion board and they were arguing

655
00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:02.199
about Second King Chapter six, and many will like, well

656
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:04.599
the reformers said it this way, and basically argued, well,

657
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:06.199
if the reformer said it that way, that's the way

658
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.039
we should go, and which that kind of makes a

659
00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:12.320
magisterial a magisterial argument, right that they're right and we

660
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:14.320
just have to follow them. And so someone I wish

661
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:16.880
I would have copied it just gave this like utterly

662
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.719
ridiculous interpretation, just saying this represents this, and this represents this,

663
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:24.599
and it was like totally absurd and well people you know,

664
00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:27.079
basically criticize it. And he was like, well, why is

665
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:32.599
my well, because it's not. The reformers didn't think this

666
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:35.199
way or these It doesn't matter. If everyone could just

667
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:36.800
go to the text and make it say whatever they

668
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:39.440
wanted to say, how can you say my absurd way

669
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:46.239
is wrong? That's the point it becomes subjective. It becomes

670
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:53.800
just a free for all. The typological very much connected

671
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:56.519
to the allegorical. You're just going to passage going well,

672
00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:59.239
this represents this. Now people will do the same with Joseph.

673
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.480
Joseph's is a type of Christ. It preaches good. You

674
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:07.079
can make that dogmatic assertion unless you've got something in

675
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.679
the New Testament that tells you that what can you do?

676
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:11.280
You can say, well, if you look at some things

677
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.519
about Joseph, there is some similarities to the life of Christ.

678
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.800
Here's what we find. Now, that's just doing observation. I

679
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:23.280
am observing similarities. You're not saying it's a type. You're

680
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.360
not saying it's a picture. You're like, have you ever

681
00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:33.079
noticed these similarities. That's observational study. That's perfectly Okay, Hey,

682
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:36.760
did you notice this and this? Do you see this correlation?

683
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:38.360
Do you? Or do you see this connection? Do you

684
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:42.360
see the similarity? Now, you're not making a dogmatic assertion.

685
00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:51.320
Sometimes it's just completely made up. So let's at least

686
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.679
consider a definition for the allegorical method, all right, The

687
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:59.239
allegorical method of biblical interpretation as a way of understanding

688
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:03.159
scripture by looking for deeper symbolic meanings beyond the literal

689
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:06.559
or historical sense of the text. So they would say,

690
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.679
you have the literal, historical meaning, but below it, there's

691
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:14.920
something deeper, there's something spiritual, and you've got to find it.

692
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:20.599
You've got to dig. And when you find it, it's amazing.

693
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:26.960
See that sounds so spiritual, right, that sounds so awesome.

694
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:34.360
In this method, various elements of the Bible story or

695
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:38.320
the Biblical stories, such as characters, events, or places, are

696
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:42.679
seen as representing broader spiritual truths or theological concepts often

697
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.480
connected to Christ or the Church or aspects of the

698
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.840
Christian faith. So I want you to hear that again.

699
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:50.159
When you take this approach, what do you have? You

700
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.719
have a character, you can have a character like Joseph

701
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:55.000
or someone in the Bible. You can have an event

702
00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:58.320
right like David killing Goliath or the parting of the

703
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.480
Red Sea. Example. You could have a place, oh, this place,

704
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:04.320
and then the next thing, you know, you say, this

705
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:09.679
represents this spiritual truth, this pollological concept, or represents Christ,

706
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:12.519
or represents the Church, or it represents aspects of the

707
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:21.800
Christian faith. Now preachers love doing this. Now again, if

708
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:26.239
I got something in the New Testament that draws the correlation,

709
00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:30.880
draws the connection, then you are free to go crazy

710
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:32.880
with it. Right, And you know what I'm saying is

711
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:35.719
you're now given freedom. But if you go to the

712
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:39.000
New Testament, you're like man, that's never even mentioned. There's

713
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:43.800
no correlation, there's no connection. Then that means how about

714
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:50.480
slow down. This approach suggests that many passages in scripture,

715
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:56.400
especially in the Old Testament, contain hidden spiritual lessons or

716
00:43:57.079 --> 00:44:01.440
typological meanings that go beyond their straightforardaras or doctrinal content.

717
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:05.639
The goal is to uncover these deeper meanings, which are

718
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:09.440
believed to convey timeless truths about God, salvation, and the

719
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:13.119
Christian life. See the good stuff is hidden. Now see

720
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:16.199
this sounds good when you're teaching on how to study

721
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.880
the Bible. Oh you really want to drive this home, right,

722
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:20.960
because you're trying to convince everyone they need to study

723
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.119
the Bible. So what do you do? You show them?

724
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:24.880
You see this text? What do you think it means?

725
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:25.880
Everybody's like, well, I don't know.

726
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:28.559
It just means that, Oh you missed it. See you

727
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:33.960
didn't realize that the axead represents, you know, someone trying

728
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.440
to serve God by keeping the law. And then the

729
00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:38.360
axe head comes off because we can't keep the law.

730
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.519
And then they fall into the water, which is judgment,

731
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:44.840
is death, is chaos, it's the wrath of God. But

732
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:47.119
then the stick represents Christ. And then everyone to be

733
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.159
sitting there going wow, and you're like, yeah, that's why

734
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:52.480
you need to learn to study the Bible, because you

735
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:54.920
can just read it and see the surface. But the truth,

736
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.159
the good stuff, lies underneath the surface. So you've got

737
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:02.039
to learn how to find the deep meaning. See that's

738
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:04.760
very good to use when you're trying to convince everyone

739
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:07.280
that they need to listen to you teach them how

740
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:18.360
to study the Bible. It sounds good. For example, some

741
00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:22.320
who may use the allegorical interpretation, the Garden of Eden

742
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.800
symbolizes the human soul and its relationship with God. Moses

743
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.480
leading the Israelites out of Egypt is an allegory for

744
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.480
Christ's leading humanity out of sin. The Promised Land is

745
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.239
a symbol of Heaven or the final state of the redeemed,

746
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:40.599
allegory that can thus turn a concrete historical event or

747
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:44.519
figure into a symbol of a greater spiritual reality. This

748
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:48.360
method has been used by influential Christian thinkers, particularly in

749
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:53.280
the Alexandrian tradition, and was systematized with approaches like the

750
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:59.159
fourfold sense of scripture, literal, allegorical, moral, and anagog gogical

751
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:04.679
in the mid and Medieval theology. So though, and we

752
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.599
can get into that fourfold sense literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical,

753
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:11.440
and we could explain what anagogical is, and we could

754
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:14.400
get into all of that, and I and look, that's

755
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.199
straight out of my hermoneutics class from Catholic from a

756
00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:21.000
Catholic school, from a Catholic university, when I'm working on

757
00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:23.960
a DeGrand Catholic theology. But it also is very much

758
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:26.559
a part of camping system, very much going all the

759
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:34.639
way back to origin and throughout much of church history. Now,

760
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.960
I could go through the entire history here. I could

761
00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:44.679
go through the entire history.

762
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:53.320
And I have it all right here. But what do

763
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:54.760
we do I want to go?

764
00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:59.360
I think I'll stop there. I think I'll stop there

765
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:02.760
because I want to get to the principles and instructions

766
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:05.880
of exactly how to do the allegorical and we will

767
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.400
we will get to that. Maybe tomorrow, we'll get to that.

768
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:11.079
Maybe tomorrow, maybe the weekend. I need to do some

769
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:12.760
of this at church, is what I need to do.

770
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:18.440
But I just wanted you to see that the the

771
00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:22.239
typological typological allegorical is very subjective. I think we can

772
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:26.239
all agree with that, and I just want to try

773
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:28.159
to show you that you may go to a church

774
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:31.000
that does not believe in the allegorical method. They would

775
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:34.159
condemn it all day, but just wait to see how

776
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:36.840
it shows up in sermon after sermon after sermon after

777
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.519
sermon after sermon, and he's just like, well wait, this,

778
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:43.639
this is this, and this, how are you getting that?

779
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.119
And the real And they'll say they'll say, no, no, no,

780
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.440
I'm just using application. Well you're but you're still taking

781
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.119
the text that's about this and you're making it about this,

782
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:58.039
you're adding meaning there, And they'll say, and you can

783
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:02.559
play all the semantics. What I'm not using allegory or

784
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:06.639
allegorical method or I'm not using typology. I'm just applying it. Well,

785
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.119
applying it is what is the lesson in the text? Now,

786
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:13.559
how does that apply to me? It's not going to

787
00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:16.880
the text saying well, Jesus in the boat is Jesus

788
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:20.400
in our life. The storm represents trial and trouble, ocean

789
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:24.880
represents us. Selling across the ocean represents our life. Like no,

790
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:29.400
that's when it gets all just crazy. People do the

791
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:31.840
same thing with parables. You start trying to make every

792
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:35.639
little part of the parable represent this and represent that. Now,

793
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.239
if the parable is interpreted and says this represents this

794
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:41.039
and this represents this, then okay, now you have a

795
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:44.320
biblical reason to say it's interprets that. Many cases we'll

796
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:47.079
go beyond what the Bible actually says. And remember, for

797
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:50.960
a parable, the idea is there's one major lesson. It's

798
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:54.440
not what everything represents. It's about what the lesson is.

799
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:56.679
And sometimes we'll lose the lesson because we're trying to

800
00:48:56.679 --> 00:49:04.199
make everything interpret everything, and it just becomes problematic When

801
00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:07.239
we open the Bible. The best thing to do is

802
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:13.239
understand it as literal as we can based off the

803
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:18.719
genre of literature that we are reading. Unless we are

804
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.519
given some clear clue that waits, something else may be

805
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:24.360
going on here and I can understand. And second King six,

806
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:27.000
you may be tempted to go, hmm, something else is

807
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:29.320
going on here that seems like a weird text. But

808
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.440
is it? Because it's been just a doesn't it fall

809
00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:37.199
into a narrative of miracles and it's just another one?

810
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:39.800
You say, well, this miracle doesn't really compare to the others.

811
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:49.079
Maybe that's the point, right, But what we need something

812
00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:59.239
deeper in most cases, But someone who uses the allegorical

813
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.239
as someone who does don't used the allegorical, we can't

814
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:04.639
judge the intent of the heart as they're doing it

815
00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:08.719
to be deceptive, deceitful, simply because they want the Bible

816
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:10.719
to say what they want it to say. We can

817
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:12.920
all make the Bible say what we want it to say,

818
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.679
no matter what method or hermoneutical method we utilize. That's

819
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:20.239
because we're sinners. We all have a tendency to do that.

820
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:27.440
Different hermeneutical systems are there because that's typically the way

821
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:30.079
people have been taught. That's the system they were raised in,

822
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.679
that's the system they were saved in. That's the system

823
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:36.480
they were taught. What we have to come to the

824
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:40.960
conclusion is, Wow, nobody agrees on which system. I think

825
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:46.760
everyone's desire, at least to some level, is to try

826
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:56.440
to understand the Bible and your understanding of the Bible.

827
00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.639
If you already have the understanding, you typically are going

828
00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:02.679
to chose the hermonutics that agree with that understanding. Correct.

829
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:05.599
A lot of times you're told this is what the

830
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:10.480
Bible means before you're taught hermeneutics. Think about your Christian life.

831
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:13.159
You weren't taught hermeneutics. First. You were taught this, this,

832
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.280
this means this, this is this, this is what you believe.

833
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:19.519
You were taught everything to believe and what passages mean

834
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.440
way before you were ever taught which hermeneutical method helped

835
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:27.159
your church arrive at that conclusion. You were taught the conclusion,

836
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:30.559
and then maybe later on you were taught the method. Well,

837
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:32.719
you were taught the method after you're already told this

838
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:35.079
is what it means. So now obviously you're not going

839
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.760
to question the method because the method agrees with everything

840
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:42.880
that you've been taught. I mean, you rarely become a Christian, Like, okay,

841
00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:45.159
before we tell you what anything means in the Bible,

842
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:48.760
We're not going to tell you one thing until you

843
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:53.800
learn hermeneutics. Here are the different hermeneutical systems. Here's the

844
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:56.960
one we utilize, and this is the one we think

845
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.400
is right. Now we're going to tell you what everything means. No,

846
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.039
you're not. You're just told what's everything means, and then

847
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:06.159
you're taught the system that will lead you to that conclusion,

848
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:10.000
because a different hermoneutical system will not lead you to

849
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:14.000
the same conclusion. So in some ways, it's kind of like,

850
00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:17.679
you know, it's a little bit the game is rigged. Hey,

851
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:19.719
this is what the Bible means. Oh, and this is

852
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:21.840
this is the way you interpret the Bible, which will

853
00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:24.400
just happen. I know it's going to be shocking. That's

854
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:31.000
going to lead you to that conclusion that's kind of

855
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:41.360
messed up, all right. I don't know if that offered

856
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:44.679
any help, but it just showed you how Camping handled

857
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:47.880
it a little bit about how to actually define it.

858
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.519
Just remember, if I go back to it, typically, especially

859
00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:55.679
if we go back to the early Church, that there

860
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:59.440
was like this four levels, right, the literal, the allegorical,

861
00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:02.840
the moral, and the anagogical. And the anagogical basically deals

862
00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:05.880
with eschatology. When you look at it from an at

863
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.599
the anagogical level, you're looking for what does this mean

864
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:12.840
for the future. Think of it that way, right, and

865
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.559
if I'm if I'm remembering the word correctly, that's how

866
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:17.800
it's pronounced anagogical.

867
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:19.639
Sometimes you may.

868
00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:27.400
Call it estological or eschatology or just future literal, allegorical moral.

869
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:33.039
Typically you go literal moral, allegorical, anagogical, I think is

870
00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:35.920
typically the way it's broken down. If I remember literal,

871
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:41.559
sometimes literal be historical. But just know that in the

872
00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:45.159
allegorical method there's multiple levels of meaning. Even if you

873
00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:48.920
go typology, you're doing the same thing. Hey, there's the

874
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:56.760
literal historical meaning, right, it's it's this city, but the

875
00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:01.000
city represents this, this, this, this, this, there's a deeper level.

876
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:09.400
That's great if you've got some clear scriptural justification for it.

877
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:12.559
But just remember just because someone is in a city,

878
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:16.760
right and that city is talked about this way, you

879
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:19.440
still got to be careful how you draw the you

880
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:23.519
connect the dots. Scripturally, people will connect dots and it's

881
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:26.639
kind of like, how are you connecting that? It looks like,

882
00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:28.719
you know, when you see in a movie some crazy

883
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:31.719
conspiratorial person down in the basement, you know, and they

884
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:34.000
got the big thing on the wall with all the

885
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:36.960
strings drawn to this and this and all these news articles.

886
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:40.000
And sometimes it's how Christians, I think, do hermonidicts. Oh look,

887
00:54:40.119 --> 00:54:42.000
look this connects here, and this connects here and this

888
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:45.159
connects here. And it's like, I know, you think cross

889
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:48.440
referencing is great, but you're just randomly cross referencing things

890
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:55.280
with no real justification for the cross reference. All right,

891
00:54:56.559 --> 00:55:01.960
fifty four minutes. I don't know if any of that's beneficial.

892
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:03.920
I don't know. I don't even know if it made

893
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:06.320
my mind feel better, But I know this, what we

894
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:10.840
just did was a far better discussion of the allegorical

895
00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:13.880
method than what I got so frustrated reviewing earlier. And

896
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:16.800
I don't say that, and I'm not trying to be negative,

897
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:19.719
but I'm just saying, we've actually now got into we

898
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.679
got an example of the allegorical method with Second King

899
00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:25.639
six and how Harold Camping handled it right, We literally

900
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:28.599
got an example of it and how he used scripture

901
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:33.559
to try to justify it. Right, And at the same time,

902
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:36.199
we're not just making an accusation that he was evil

903
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.880
and just wanted No I disagree, I think he was wrong.

904
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:46.159
You don't have to just start making accusations of someone's

905
00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:49.000
motives at whom you've never you don't even know, and

906
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:55.480
that's just so oh, I can't stand that in Christianity sometimes.

907
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:03.159
And what's weird is I'm opposed to the allegorical method,

908
00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:05.199
but I found myself having to try to defend the

909
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:09.239
allegorical method because it was being misrepresented. That's that's a

910
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:11.519
weird place to be, right, But you know what, we

911
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:17.199
should always be willing to defend any system that's being misrepresented,

912
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.800
because Christianity should not be about misrepresenting, bearing false witness

913
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:24.920
and making false accusations. If I hear someone saying whacked

914
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.719
out things about Satanists, which around this time of year,

915
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:31.239
you'll hear somebody saying crazy things about Satanism and Satanists,

916
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:33.119
and it'll be like, what form of Satanism are you

917
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:35.280
even talking about? You're talking about Anton LaVey, the Church

918
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:37.840
of Satan because you don't you obviously never read the

919
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:40.559
Satanic Bible written by Anton Lave Because you've made nine

920
00:56:40.679 --> 00:56:44.480
hundred false assumptions and accusations. You're bearing false witness. That's wrong.

921
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:46.320
So then I find myself in the weird case of

922
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:53.800
defending Satanism. But I don't care if it's Mormonism, Islam, Satanism, Atheism.

923
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:57.079
If it's being misrepresented and we're bearing false witness and

924
00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:01.079
we're making false accusations and we're and we're judging motives

925
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:04.719
which whom which we cannot, then someone's got to speak

926
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:06.639
up and go no, no, no, no, no no no.

927
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:09.119
I disagree with these guys, but I'm going to defend

928
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:11.880
them in this case because you're not being fair. And

929
00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:14.960
I hope someone would do that for me, and I

930
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.440
would do that for you. Even Look, I hate charismatic

931
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:24.760
theology with every ounce of my being. I loathe charismatic theology.

932
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:27.960
But if someone's misrepresenting it, I hope I would try

933
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.599
to defend it. As much as I hate it. I hate.

934
00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.199
I probably hate charismatic I know I do. I hate

935
00:57:34.280 --> 00:57:37.440
charismatic theology more than I hate Satanism, all right, because

936
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:42.519
Satanism is well the Anton LaVey form is atheistic. It's

937
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:45.039
just basically a form of atheism where you basically are

938
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:49.679
worshiping yourself. Well, as much as I disagree with it,

939
00:57:51.159 --> 00:57:55.639
charismatic theology I think is just is well yeah, oh man,

940
00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:57.719
I could go all day on that, but again you

941
00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:01.880
would want to correctly. Same thing with why did I

942
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:04.400
pursue a degree in Catholic theology because I got tired

943
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:08.599
of hearing so called non Catholics criticized Catholicism, demonstrating they

944
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:11.440
have no idea what they're referring to, misrepresenting it. And

945
00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:13.440
then at the same time, when they preach about salvation,

946
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:16.760
they almost preach a Catholic understanding of an infused righteous

947
00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:19.920
salvation versus an imputed righteousness, while they yet claim they

948
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:23.320
believe in imputed righteousness, yet then judge imputed righteousness based

949
00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:26.360
off action. You can't judge imputed righteousness off action. And

950
00:58:26.679 --> 00:58:29.199
it's like, no, you're more Catholic than Catholics, and yet

951
00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:34.960
you criticize Catholicism. Go figure, Even though I disagree with Catholicism,

952
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.159
I won't defend it if it's being misrepresented. So I

953
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:40.599
don't agree with the allegorical method, but I'm not going

954
00:58:40.679 --> 00:58:43.800
to impugne their character and say they're doing it because

955
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:45.400
they're evil and they just want.

956
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:46.159
To corrupt scripture.

957
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:49.239
I think Carol Camping was wrong. I think he did

958
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:51.679
a lot of damage. I mean, he told people to

959
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:53.840
leave their churches and if they stayed, they would be

960
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:56.840
taking the mark of the beast. I mean, I completely

961
00:58:56.880 --> 00:59:02.920
condemn that, But I believe he thought in his mind,

962
00:59:03.079 --> 00:59:07.920
based off his crazy allegorical interpretation of the Book of

963
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:15.840
Jeremiah and Ezekiel, that he was onto something. His harmoneudic

964
00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:17.719
was wrong and it led to our wrong conclusion that

965
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.719
I think was very harmful in damaging. I think he

966
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:26.119
thought he was just studying the Bible. He was just

967
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:29.519
trying to figure it out. And it just shows you

968
00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:43.239
that the Bible is somewhat dangerous, even though we don't

969
00:59:43.239 --> 00:59:45.760
want to admit that, because you can start trying your

970
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:47.960
best to understand it. Next thing, you know, you're believing

971
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.400
some something that you know, like, how did you end

972
00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:55.719
up there? You could argue that Camping was just trying

973
00:59:55.719 --> 01:00:02.840
to be very maybe consistent with this allegorical typological system. Now,

974
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.119
others may use a little bit of typology and a

975
01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:07.719
little bit of allegory. But see they don't go very

976
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:10.320
far with it. They just use it at certain times

977
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:12.920
and then abandon it in other times. Right, so they'll

978
01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:15.719
be like second King six, they'll go four full blown

979
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:19.960
typology and allegorical, but then a next you know this passage,

980
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:22.320
they'll go much more literal. Okay, that's just being a

981
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.840
little bit more inconsistent. Well, what happens if you go

982
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:29.679
all in with a allegorical typological Well then well, camping,

983
01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:32.800
you could say, just went too far. Well okay, but

984
01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:36.159
going too far isn't because you have some evil motive.

985
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:42.920
It just means you're taking a system and well, I

986
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:44.599
don't know how you ended up there, but I mean

987
01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:49.760
that can happen to any of us. Right, all right,

988
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:54.760
that hopefully that ended much more positive than the last one.

989
01:00:54.840 --> 01:00:57.519
The last one was such a disaster. But all right,

990
01:00:57.559 --> 01:01:00.239
there we go. We'll continue to talk about the allegorical method,

991
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:01.920
we'll do a little bit more work. All of this.

992
01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:04.360
You may hear all of this repeated on Sunday is

993
01:01:04.360 --> 01:01:06.559
what you may hear a lot of this repeated on

994
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:10.599
Sunday in a sermon form. I don't know, I just

995
01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:13.400
there's a lot of get a lot of frustration dealing

996
01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:19.599
with some of these issues. All right, thanks for listening. Everyone,

997
01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:24.599
have a great evening, and let's go Dodgers. All right,

998
01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:28.199
just joking because I'm going to go check the baseball

999
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:30.679
game right now. All right, everyone, have a great night.

1000
01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:31.199
God bless