Jan. 10, 2025

Mountain Meadows Massacre

Mountain Meadows Massacre

A discussion about the history behind the new Netflix series, American Primeval

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A discussion about the history behind the new Netflix series, American Primeval

WEBVTT

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

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the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone.

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It is Friday, January the tenth, twenty twenty five. It

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is currently twelve eight pm Central time, and I am

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coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located

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right here in Abilene, Texas. I'm sorry, I'm a little distracted.

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I was trying to make sure my iPad was looking

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like it was about to delete all of my notes,

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and I've got so many notes here, so I'm sitting

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here trying to give you the date. Good afternoon everyone,

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it is Friday. And then all of a sudden, like

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whoa wha wait wait wait, wait wait, my iPad's about

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to delete all of my notes. Stop stop all right,

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so let's do that again. Good afternoon everyone. It is Friday,

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January the tenth, twenty twenty five. It is now twelve

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nine pm Central time, and I am still coming to

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you live from the Theology Central studio located right here

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in Abilene, Texas. So, if you have a notebook, if

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you have something you can take notes, I want you

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to write down two separate things. Are you ready. The

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first thing I want you to write down. Is this

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American Prime Evil. American Prime Evil. That's American. I'm pretty

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sure you can figure out how to spell that Prime evil.

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P R I M E VA L. American Prime Evil.

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I want you to write that down, right. The other

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thing I want you to write down is the Mountain

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Meadows Massacre. So the first thing is American Prime Evil.

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The second thing is Mountain Meadows massacre. All right, one

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more time, American Prime Evil. Write that down. The second

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thing Mountain Meadows massacre, the Mountains Meadows massacre. Now, the

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first thing I gave you American Primeval. That is a

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new show on Netflix. Now, let me just say this

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right from the beginning. It is violent. It is brutal.

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It is a show that many will not want to watch,

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may even have a hard time even trying to watch it.

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By no means, is this like a show that you're, hey,

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this is a show we should watch in church. It

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is adult, It is violent, it is explicit. It is

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somewhat disturbing. Effect. It is very disturbing. But it may

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be disturbing. It may be more disturbing for me for

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a different reason than maybe it's disturbing to you. Some

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of you will find the violence, the language, You may

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find the brutality. You may find that disturbing. I find

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it disturbing for a whole different reason because America Primeval

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to show on Netflix that made its debut yesterday, January

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the ninth, I've watched two episodes of it so far. Well,

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what disturbs me is that it is showing, at least

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in a fictionalized way, something that actually happened in history,

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which is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Now, American Primeval is

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a fictionalized story, right. It has characters, it has things

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going on in their life, so that's fictionalized, but the

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backdrop of it is historical fact, at least in these

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first two episodes, and that is the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

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And the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If you've ever read about it,

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if you've ever studied it, it should bother you, it

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should disturb you, and most importantly, we should learn something

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from it. So what I'm going to do is, I'm

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gonna give you a little background of the American Primeval show,

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kind of lead us into the history of the Mountain

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Meadows Massacre. Then we're gonna look at well some lessons

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that I think should be taken from all of this.

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Now again, I am not telling you to go watch

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American Primeval. I'm not telling you to watch it. If

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you do, you probably definitely don't want your children anyone

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where around it. And if you're easily offended or you

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don't want to see something brutal, violent and explicit, then

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by all means, do not watch it. Once you start

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the show, right up in the top left hand corner,

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Netflix usually kind of gives you a little warning about

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all of its the content in it. You're gonna see

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a list of things and you're gonna be like, Okay,

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maybe not. And it's perfectly okay if you don't want

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to watch it. But because it's connected to the Mountain

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Meadows massacre, I think you need to know about it

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for this reason. If you know anything about the Mountain

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Meadows massacre, you know that's connected to Mormonism. So then

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therefore it's connected to religion, to scripture, to God, and

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so therefore we definitely need to talk about it on

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a podcast called Theology Central. All right, so are you ready?

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Here's a little bit about the show Netflix New Some

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would refer to it as a Western show Netflix New drama.

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However you would like to classify it, I'm going to

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be I'm borrowing from two news articles. I saw two

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news articles this morning about American Primeval and the connection

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it has with the Mountain Meadows massacre. I was waiting

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for some article to connect it to the historical fact.

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The first articles I saw was just reviewing the show

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and most many of them did not mention the historical

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fact behind this. But here we go. Netflix new show

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American Primeval takes place in eighteen fifty seven Utah Territory,

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eighteen fifty seven. The Utah Territory. Now at the time

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eighteen fifty seven, we're still four years out from the

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American Civil War and it won't be another forty two

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years until Utah officially becomes a state. And this lawless land,

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tensions don't just run high between the white colonizers and

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the Native Americans, but between various rival indigenous tribes, the

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US Army, and the Mormon churches ruthless, which I think

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the best way to pronounce it would be the Novu legion.

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All right, So let me go through this again. And

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this Netflix show, which is American Primeval. It takes place

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in eighteen fifty seven in the Utah territory. Now, once

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you go back to that time and we try to

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look at what's going on, and from a historical perspective,

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we're still four years away from the American Civil War.

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It will not be another WI. It won't be will

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It will be another forty two years until Utah officially

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becomes a state. Now, at that time in eighteen fifty seven,

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it's a lawless land, and tensions don't just run high

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between the white colonizers, those white pioneers coming across to

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find a new place to live, right, And you obviously

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have the Native American tribes who are not so happy

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of seeing wagon trains coming their way into their land.

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That would make obviously sense. But you also have rival

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You have some tensions, You have some aggression happening between

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various rival indigenous tribes. So some different tribes are fighting

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each other for probably land or whatever they're fighting over.

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But then you add into that the US Army, and

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then you add into that the Mormon Church, and they

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have a ruthless group known as the Nauvoo Legion. I

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think the Novu, I think is probably the right way

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it is spelled in a U voo. The Novu Novu Legion,

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now you may never even heard of them. I am

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not super familiar with them. I am super familiar with

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the history of this time because I love history. I'm

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not super familiar with the Novu Legion. Now the first episode, now,

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so there's a little bit of the historical context. Now

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let's step back out. Let's go back to the Netflix show.

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In the first episode of American Primeval, it is directed

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and executively produced by Peter Berg. This now, I'm going

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to give you a little bit of the story here.

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So I'm going to try not to give too many spoilers.

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I already cut some things out of how the news

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article describes this to try to protect the story. I'll

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try to be somewhat vague because I don't want to

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ruin it, just in case someone would like to see it.

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In the first episode, we pick up this story of

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a single mother. Her first name is Sarah, and her

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and her son Devin. They attempt to make their way

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from Fort Bridger to California. So you have a single mom,

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you have her son. They want to get out of

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Fort Bridger and they want to go to California, but

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for some reason, they can't hire a guide. It's not

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working out, so they team up with a wagon train

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of settlers from Arkansas and kindly Mormons making their way

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further west, so they can't she can't find anyone else.

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She finds a group of Mormons. She asks basically, hey,

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come on, let me and my son join you. We

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got to get out of here. We gotta get we

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we want to leave. We got to get out of here, right.

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I won't give you any backstory or anything there. However,

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before the end of American Primeval episode one, tensions erun

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between the pioneers briefly camping in Utah Territory, and the

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local Mormon militia. Now, this is where the show now enters,

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leaves a little bit of the fiction and enters into fact. Now,

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the line does blurred. It's historical fiction, so obviously not

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everything is accurately described, but it gets us now from

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American Primeval to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which you need

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to know about, you really do. If you're a religious

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quote unquote a Christian, and I reject Mormonism already. I

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believe that's completely fraudulent, heretical, completely, But what happens here

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is so disturbing. So here's what happens. What follows that

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set up right there right because tensions are up between

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the pioneers briefly camping in Utah Territory and the local

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Mormon militia. What follows is a grotesque massacre in which

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the Novu legion mask and dei disguise themselves as one

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of the local tribes. They murder the nonviolent settlers as

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they camp for the night. Men are scalped, women and

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children are slaughtered, and not even the Mormons amongst the

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group are spared. They slaughter everyone. These this Mormon militia,

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they disguise himself as one of the native tribes. They

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come in and slaughter everyone. Now the question is, did

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this horrific massacre really happen? Is American Primeval based on

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a true story or is it all just a figment

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of their imagination? Well, American Prime Evil? Is it based

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on a true story? Well, yes, and no, American Prime

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Evil is a work of historical fiction. However, the backdrop

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of American Prime Evil is based on reality. In eighteen

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fifty seven, Mormons disguise as Pawut that would be the

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name of the Native Americans, and I'm hoping I'm trying

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to be very respectful. I do not want to mispronounce

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their names. But the Pawut they disguise themselves as being

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a part of this tribe. They did massacre a group

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of settlers and a tragedy known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

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Fort Bridger did exist, and people did run a foul

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of Brigham Young and his ambitions for the Young Mormon faith.

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Brigham Young is kind of a central figure here. Now

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historically we can get into what is known or not known.

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There's some debate here, but there's no question the massacre occurred,

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and there's no question that this no Voo legion, this

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Mormon militia was very was very much behind it, and

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they did disguise, disguise themselves as the pout Native American tribe,

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which then would put the focus on them, on all

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the Native American tribes. It you can this is so

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twisted in the way they did this. Now in the show,

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the massacre is violent and brutal and explicit. It is

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man it is It is powerful to watch it unfold.

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It's somewhat disturbing to watch it unfold. And what was

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disturbing to me. Is not just because the show was violent,

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and it was because I this is historical fact. Now,

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how they describe what happened, you know, I think in

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the show it was daytime. I think in reality it

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was nighttime. I mean the obviously they take some some

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artistic license with it. But here's now a more of

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a breakdown. Now, now we're leaving the Netflix show all right,

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So we're gonna go ahead. I don't want to give

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any more information about the Netflix show American Primeval. Open

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up your Netflix app or subscribe to Netflix. You'll see

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it probably right there. It'll probably be in the top

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ten shows today, may even be up to number one

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by Friday. By today, so you can go look for it.

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You can decide, you can make your own choice whether

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you want to watch it or not. Just remember it's

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not a Christian show. It is violent and it is explicit.

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I cannot state that enough. But here's a little breakdown

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now about the historical reality. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was

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a tragic and controversial event in American history that occurred

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on September the eleventh, eighteen fifty seven and southern Utah.

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Why a wagon train of immigrants from Arkansas, known as

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the Baker Fancier Party, was traveling to California when it

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was attacked by a group of Mormon settlers and members

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of the local Pout tribe. Now this is where you

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get just make sure you understand this. Was it Mormons

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disguised as members of the tribe or did they utilize

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some of the tribe to assist them in the massacre?

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All right, Now, remember we have two things going on here.

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The article from the news article about the show described

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them as disguising themselves as members of the Poute tribe. However,

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other sources and this in fact, that paragraph right there

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comes from artificial intelligence, it says it utilized some of

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the local Pout tribe. They weren't just disguising themselves, so

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some of them were there. The show on Netflix seems

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to show there was the way the Mormon militia disguised

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themselves really was wearing masks, and that the tribe was

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actually the members of the Piot tribe. So we could

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get into some history trying to figure that out. The

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news article says they disguise themselves. AI doesn't go with

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that approach. Just so that you can see sometimes when

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we're dealing with history, there's going to be sometimes a

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little difference in how the story is told. Here are

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some of the key to details context. Tensions were high

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between the US government and the Mormon community in Utah,

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led by Brigham Young, who was both the governor of

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the Utah Territory and the leader of the Church of

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Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Now, I'm going to

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say this, I've said it a million times. I think

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there's one historical fact everyone should be able to agree on.

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Whenever church, whenever religion merges with state, when the state

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and the church merge. When there's a merging between the

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government and religion, the end result people will always die.

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That's how it has happened throughout church history. You merge

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church and state, people die. That's why I can't That's

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why I'm so opposed to Christian nationalism. I want the

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separation of church and state to be as separated as possible,

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because once the two merge, bad things start happening, right,

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because then the church says, well, this is wrong, and

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this is wrong, and this is wrong. Then the state

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will utilize its power to punish. So then well that

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sounds great if your church is in charge. But guess

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what if the Presbyterians take over or merge with the state,

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then Baptists who won't baptize babies and believe it's wrong,

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we're gonna get punished. And we see this throughout church history.

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Or if the Catholics take over, the Protestants get. If

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the Protestants take over, the Catholics get, that's what starts happening.

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People get punished, people get murdered, people get killed, people

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get punished. Church and state merging is the worst thing

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that can ever happen. And what happens here? Who's in charge?

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Bring him young? What is he in charge of a

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church and he's the governor of the territory? No, no

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conflict of interest there. The Mormon community was in a

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defensive posture due to the Utah War, a conflict between

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federal troops and Mormon settlers. Rumors circulated that the immigrants

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were hostile to the Mormons and had ties to anti

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Mormon groups. The Baker Fancher party was besieged by attackers

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for several days at Mountain Meadows, a valley along their route.

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Now please note the Netflix show shows it happening one time.

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Many of the articles describe it as a one time event. However,

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AI classifies it and describes it as there were multiple attacks.

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That wasn't just one all right, So just so that

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you know that the immigrants initially defended themselves but eventually

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surrendered under a promise of safe passage. Now, the Netflix

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show does not show this happening, right, so ultimately they surrender,

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like hey, hey, hey, okay, we're sorry. Stop stop. This

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is where the history gets really, in some ways more disturbing.

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After surrendering, the immigrants were led away from their camp,

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separated into smaller groups, and killed. Yeah, that maybe even

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more disturbing than what the Netflix show demonstrated. Now, approximately

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one hundred and twenty men, women, and children were killed.

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Seventeen children, all under the age of seven, were spared

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and later returned to relative So seventeen children under the

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age of seven were spared and only seventeen. There were

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more children there than that, but seventeen were spared and

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under the age of seven, So that's good that they

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were spared at least that's a good thing. But one

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hundred and twenty people, men, women, and children were slaughtered.

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Now Here we go. The massacre was initially blamed on

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the Pout tribe see, but evidence pointed to significant involvement

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by Mormon settlers. Brigham Young denied prior knowledge of the attack,

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and the LDS Church has since condemned the massacre. John D. Lee,

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a Mormon leader involved in the attack, was eventually tried, convicted,

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and executed in eighteen seventy seven for his role in

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the massacre. The Meadows Massacre remains a dark chapter in

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American and Mormon history. The LDS Church has expressed regret

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for the event and has participated in efforts to memorialize

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the victims. Hey, we're so sorry this happens, and we're

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gonna do everything we can to memorialize the victims. I mean,

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we want you to remember that, well Mormons had slaughtered them. Okay,

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that's I mean. The whole thing is just horrible. And

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let me make it very clear, all right. I don't

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want anyone to think that I'm misrepresenting history. What did

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I say? Whenever church and state merge, people die. Look,

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the Church history is filled with people being killed, murdered,

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and dying because of well, the involvement of religion. Now,

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the site of The massacre is now a National Historic Landmark.

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So if you ever in Utah and can you want

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to find the National Historic Landmark, or if you're close

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to Utah, maybe something you want to go do take

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your children to and you can possibly explain to them

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how bad it is when church and state merge. Now,

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I know some people may not say that that's a

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major lesson from it, but I think it is. The

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massacre continues to be the subject of historical research and debate,

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particularly regarding the extent of Brigham Young's involvement and the

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motivations of those who carried out the attack. There's lots

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of debate about that. Many scholars like Brigham Young had

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no idea he was not involved, Others think maybe he did.

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The debate will rage on exactly what were the motivations,

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why did they do this? What led to this? These

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are important questions, but from a philological perspective, here's what

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destroys the attack and the killing of human beings of

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is the most disturbing part of the story. The second

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most important, or the most disturbing part of the story

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is that scripture and God were used by some involved

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in the massacre to justify their actions, which is probably

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one of the at least a second or third most

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troubling aspect of this event. I want you to hear

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that they utilize scripture that utilize God to justify a massacre,

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a slaughter, the misuse of religion, the misuse of religious belief.

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It really serves as an example and how scripture and

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theology can be twisted to support violence, to support fear,

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to support prejudice, bigotry, hatred, to support and to really

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serve as kind of a prop for your political motivations.

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And in many cases those political motivations, those personal bias

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and prejudice that you're using scripture to justify. Ultimately, those

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things take precedent over genuine faith, over a genuine concern

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for trying to understand the scriptures. And we can't deny

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that reality. We're all capable of going to the scriptures

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and twisting them to say what we want them to say,

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to justify ourselves or to condemn someone we don't like. Now,

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how with scripture and God used, Well, the first way

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it was used is the Mormons had a perceived divine mandate.

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Oh oh boy, Christians love to do this. We have

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a divine mandate. We're just supposed to do this. We

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have a divine mandate. We have a divine mandate to

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take over. We have a divine mandate to do this.

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We have a divine mandate from God to take over America.

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I mean, how did that work out? Maybe in history

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God has given us America. I'm sorry Native Americans that

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you're here. You've got to go or you have to die. Oh.

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Whenever people perceive they have a divine mandate, Oh, that's

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always a troubling concept that can arise. Some of the

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Mormon settlers believe they were acting under a divine mandate

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to protect their community and faith. The Mormons at the

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time felt undersea due to the Utah War and years

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of persecution, leading to a siege mentality. They may have

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interpreted the immigrants as a threat to their survival and

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God's work. We have a divine mandate. Nothing can stop us.

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We have to defend it. We Oh, and people love

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to say God is telling me to do this. God

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is telling me, God is leading me to do this.

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I've always said the psychological manipulation that leads to It's

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the same thing when a pastor said God gave me

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this sermon. Well, then I can't criticize the sermon. God

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told me to do this. Well, I can't say you're wrong.

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If you want a divine mandate, you open the Bible

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and what the Bible says. There's your divine mandate. God

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is not speaking to you outside of the scriptures. He's

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not leading you with some still small voice. It's not

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a feeling, it's not a it's not anything happening in

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your body. That's why I cannot stand charismatic theology where

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God is leading and guiding and speaking outside of the Bible,

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which leads to craziness. So they had to perceived divine mandate.

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Number two. Old Testament justification. The use of Old Testament

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narratives such as God's commanding theirs or all liights to

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destroy their enemies, Joshua and the conquest of Canaan may

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have been cited or implied to justify violence. The selective

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00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.920
application of scripture can be dangerous, especially when used to

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frame violence as obedience to God. Now let me make

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it very clear it may have been used. I don't

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know if we have any definitive historical documentation that they

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utilized Old Testament, but a lot of times Old Testament

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passages are utilized for well people to call for other

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people to be killed. How many times have you heard

393
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pastors call for homosexuals to be executed and killed because

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they cite an Old Testament scripture. Yeah, people will use

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the Old Testament to kill anyone they want killed. Number

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three doctrine of blood atonement. Some leaders within the LDS

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Church at that time had taught the controversial and now

398
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disavowed concept of blood atonement, which suggested that certain sins

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required the shedding of blood for forgiveness. Hey, someone has

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00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:51.519
to die. Someone's blood has to be shed if there's

401
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:54.519
going to be forgiveness. And we believe the Son of

402
00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:57.640
God his shed blood brings forgiveness. But we don't believe

403
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.519
someone else has to die in order to make atonement.

404
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:06.559
Like no, Jesus made the atonement. Now, this blood, this

405
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.640
doctrine of blood atonement, as taught by by some. Let

406
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:13.200
me make it very clear some in the LDS Church,

407
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not all, just some. This is very important. We may

408
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:23.559
not have any direct evidence that this doctrine directly motivated

409
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.559
the massacre. So we again, once again, we may have

410
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:32.680
we don't have maybe some specific historical document that states it. However,

411
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.480
many would say the existence of this doctrine may have

412
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:42.200
contributed at least in part to an environment where violence

413
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.759
was seen as justifiable and under certain circumstances. So this,

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00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.640
at least the existence of this doctrine could have possibly

415
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.720
given some a justification to say violence is justifiable in

416
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:08.279
these circumstances. Religious loyalty and obedience. The settlers involved in

417
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:12.319
the massacre were influenced by a sense of religious duty

418
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and obedience to the church or church leaders. John D. Lee,

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a prominent Mormon leader and key participant in the massacre,

420
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:30.680
claimed he was acting under orders from higher church authorities,

421
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though this remains debated. So at least one of the

422
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.839
individuals claim, hey, I was acting on you know, orders

423
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from church authorities, and those church authorities obviously denied it.

424
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And you know, well you can. How did it play out?

425
00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:49.319
No one, No one's going to know. But once again,

426
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.079
when people become law this when you become loyal to

427
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:56.039
a church, when you become loyal to a leader, when

428
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:02.480
you become loyal to a thiological system, truth gets sacrificed

429
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.079
and crazy things can take place. And we've seen that.

430
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If you ever watch, if you ever read the Roy's report.

431
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.119
Whenever if she reports something negative, say about John MacArthur,

432
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:19.240
the MacArthur supporters come out like they pull out their swords,

433
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.000
and I'm not talking the Bible. They pull out their

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00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.359
physical swords, Okay, okay, metaphorically speaking, they pull out their

435
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:28.799
verbal swords. How about that? And they start fighting back,

436
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:31.079
and they started attacking, calling him you're a woman, you

437
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.319
shouldn't be saying anything, and you just hate MacArthur and

438
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.680
you're ungodly and what about your past Julie Roy's, I

439
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.720
bet you've done that. And then nobody wants to actually

440
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.920
listen because they're so loyal to a man, they're so

441
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:49.039
loyal to a church, they're so loyal to a theology,

442
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.200
we can't and that happens. It doesn't matter if it's

443
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.400
a charismatic leader. The charismatics come out support the leader.

444
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:57.519
If it doesn't matter if it's MacArthur, It doesn't matter

445
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.359
whom it is. You choose your son, you choose your leaders,

446
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:05.640
and then people show a loyalty to it. And that's

447
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:11.079
not the way it's supposed to work. Now, what are

448
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:15.240
the problems with these justifications? Well, then the misuse of scripture.

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00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.200
They use scripture to justify violence and ignore the broader

450
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:23.000
biblical themes of love, mercy, justice for Christians, especially for Christians,

451
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.680
the teachings of Jesus love your enemy, pray for those

452
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.960
who persecute you directly contradicts their actions. But how many

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00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.559
times have you say love your enemy turned the other cheek? Well,

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00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.799
it doesn't actually mean that. Well, in this case I

455
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.799
can kill someone. Well, in this case, I can kill someone,

456
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:46.000
resist not evil, Well, submit yourself to governmental authorities. Well,

457
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.599
in this case it doesn't count. In this case, I

458
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.519
don't have to. And we always love to have our

459
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.440
you know, exception or get out of free gel card, right.

460
00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:02.039
I mean, so, the first problem was the misuse of scripture. Second,

461
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:06.720
the twisting of God's character. Depicting God as endorsing indiscriminate

462
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.440
violence misrepresents his character as reveiled in scripture. While the

463
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.480
Bible contains accounts of divine judgment, these are specific and

464
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.039
not a blanket endorsement for human violence. I think the

465
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.880
issue here here is that it's not so much of

466
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.000
twisting God's character. I think in many cases what they

467
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.480
do is they take a passage that is descriptive and

468
00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:27.680
make it prescriptive. Which we've talked about so many times.

469
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.720
A third possible problem, Now some may agree, some may

470
00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:40.440
disagree with this is maybe this demonstrates and ignoring of

471
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:49.759
personal responsibility. See, if you claim divine justification for violent actions,

472
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:55.200
you shift the blame from a human decision to God,

473
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:04.599
undermining personal conduct, personal accountability, and any responsibility to discern

474
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.279
right and wrong. If you say, well, God told me,

475
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:12.199
God said, now, what are some lessons we can take

476
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.119
from this? Well, we need to have critical We need

477
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:20.880
to be critical and critically examine any religious claims. Believers

478
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.400
must critically examine claims that invoke God or scripture to

479
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.960
justify any type of action. We've got to we've got

480
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:30.159
to say, wait a minute, wait a minute, what do

481
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.519
you say? And the sermon that we reviewed last night,

482
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:36.239
the man made all kinds of accusations, accusations about lost people,

483
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:40.119
and many cases he just was factually in error. He

484
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:52.000
bore false witness. Pastors, sermons, religious leaders make all kinds

485
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.320
of claims that make all kinds of accusations, They condemn people,

486
00:34:56.360 --> 00:35:00.320
they say all kinds of things. Those claims have to

487
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:13.760
be clearly looked at and examined. Maybe we have to

488
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:20.679
avoid extremism. The Mountain Meadows massacre. Maybe it serves as

489
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:30.920
a warning against allowing fear isolation to foster religious extremism. Now,

490
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.199
it's always difficult to know when you have entered into

491
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.880
some form of extremism, some type of religious extremism. It's

492
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.280
sometimes difficult to see because you'll be convinced that, no,

493
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.719
I'm being more faithful to scripture, I'm being more committed

494
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:45.760
to God, I'm being the right I have God on

495
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.920
my side. And you may have just slid over into

496
00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:50.920
some weird extremism and you've left God behind, but you

497
00:35:51.320 --> 00:36:03.360
think God is justifying what you're doing. How about love

498
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:09.039
and peace? Maybe as Christians we could possibly try to

499
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:15.079
emphasize the teachings of love, peace, and reconciliation and try

500
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:26.039
to ensure that we're interpreting scripture correctly. Ai summarized it

501
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:34.599
this way. The Mountain Meadows massacre is a tragic example

502
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:45.519
of how religion can be misused to justify violence. It

503
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:50.559
underscores the importance of approaching scripture with humility, a commitment

504
00:36:50.599 --> 00:37:06.760
to context, and a heart aligned with God's justice and mercy.

505
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:10.760
So I asked Ai this, I said, Hey, can you

506
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:16.159
give me some just general principles and lessons that we

507
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:19.280
can take away from the Mountain Meadows massacre. What are

508
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.840
some general This is what AI gave me. Number one,

509
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.719
the danger of groupthink and blind obedience. I can't stand

510
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:33.800
group think. I cannot stand blind obedience. I cannot. Now

511
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.519
I may go the opposite direction. If the group thinks A,

512
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:42.239
I'm going with B, I'm going different. I'm going the

513
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.320
opposite direction. And I can't stand group think. And I

514
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:50.480
think group think is very common in Christianity. When individuals

515
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:56.119
prioritize loyalty to a group leader, they may commit or

516
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:58.519
justify atrocities. Now I'm not saying it's always going to

517
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:00.960
go that far, but many Christians, like we all have

518
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.400
to think this way. We almost look at it this way,

519
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.159
we almost do it. And it's like if anyone says, no, no, no,

520
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.599
not gonna go that way, gonna think differently, you you're

521
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.800
immediately like you're you're you're thrown out of the group. It's,

522
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.639
you know, quoting the famous lyric you know, conformer, be

523
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:22.480
cast out. Christianity is all about group think. And if

524
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.639
you come up, if you if you're a Christian, and

525
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.599
let's say you're you don't support Trump or you don't

526
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.639
support Republicans. Uh, oh, you're possibly in trouble if you're

527
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:32.559
a Christian and you're like, well, wait a minute, wait

528
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:35.360
a minute, I think the text could do you start

529
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:39.320
challenging maybe certain interpretations. You're in trouble. You gotta you

530
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:41.719
got to pick a team. You gotta wear the colors

531
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:43.800
of that team, and you gotta you gotta, you gotta

532
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.760
color within the lines. And there is no room, there's

533
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:50.760
nothing allowed for you to possibly, I don't know think.

534
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:58.679
A second lesson Ai pointed out is the consequences of

535
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:03.360
fear and prejudice. Fear and prejudice can lead to dehumanization.

536
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:09.559
You begin to dehumanize people. And I point this out

537
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:12.559
in sermons. Sometimes it's always them them them they they

538
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:16.239
they they they the lost, this they they They're all

539
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:21.119
the bad people. Be worry about them, fear them, and

540
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:24.079
that we almost dehumanize them, and we create almost some

541
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:28.559
kind of you know, image of the lost people being

542
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:33.440
this way, but we're all the good guys. Well, you

543
00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:36.039
begin to dehumanize them, and you begin to justify your

544
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:43.519
judgmental condemning bearing false witness. We have to avoid making

545
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:48.159
assumptions about other people based on rumors or stereotypes. How

546
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:51.239
about we seek understanding? How about I don't know. I

547
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.320
know now, there was a time a couple of years

548
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:56.280
ago where Christians were debating this, how about we have empathy.

549
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.960
I know we were being told that empathy is sinful,

550
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.519
But I think I'm going to go with understanding and

551
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:05.880
empathy even in times of conflict. Now, I'll be fair

552
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:09.920
with I'll be honest with you. I sometimes do much

553
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:13.960
better and seeking understanding and empathy for the world for

554
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:18.480
the lost. My problem is I sometimes don't have much

555
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:22.079
empathy or seek understanding amongst Christians that I think sometimes

556
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.039
are whacked out of their minds, and they say some

557
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:26.519
of the most ridiculous things, and I get very frustrated

558
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:30.559
with it. I need to seek understanding and empathy with everyone.

559
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:38.320
So the danger of groupthink and blind obedience Number two.

560
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:44.320
The consequences of fear and prejudice. Number three the corruption

561
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:49.679
of power. When religious or political leaders hold unchecked power,

562
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.760
it can lead to abuses, including the manipulation of followers.

563
00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:57.679
Power must be held accountable, and no leaders should be

564
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:03.039
above scrutiny or criticism. Now, Christians love to talk about

565
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.599
we need accountability. We need a and it's always funny

566
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:10.320
we need They always want to assign accountability to that person,

567
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:14.559
but that with the leaders that they love and adore,

568
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.480
they don't care. They'll say that there's accountability there, But

569
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:19.519
in many cases you can demonstrate is there really any

570
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:24.920
accountability there. I think the main lesson is not about accountability.

571
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.239
I think the main lesson is it's about the corruption

572
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:35.239
of power, power, position, political influence. When we get we

573
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:50.760
crave power, we crave position, we crave control. I'm going

574
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.840
to skip some AI gives me like fifteen things here,

575
00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:57.199
I'm going to skip down to this one. The importance

576
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:02.360
of historical reflection. Understand and acknowledging past wrongs helps prevent

577
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:06.320
repeating them in the future. We should study history with

578
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.840
humility and a willingness to learn, even when it reveals

579
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:12.880
uncomfortable truth. That's when we study church history. We should

580
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.960
not just try to study church history to find people

581
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.840
who seem to agree with us so that we can

582
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.119
tell everyone, Hey, the early church thought. In many cases

583
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:23.000
we just misrepresent the early Church. How about we study

584
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:27.280
church history and acknowledge the problems, the failures, the sin

585
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:30.000
so that we can learn from and that we can

586
00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:33.920
see our own failure and our own sin. We should

587
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:38.639
study the things like the Mountain Meadows massacre. Know what happened,

588
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.840
remember the people who died, and be bothered by it.

589
00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:52.440
See by reflecting on the Mountain Meadows massacre, if we

590
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:58.280
reflect on it, we can be reminded of the importance

591
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.159
of vigilance against the force is a fear, prejudice, and

592
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:07.599
power that tends to lead to such tragedies. These principles

593
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:12.119
challenge us to foster justice, compassion, and accountability and our

594
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:17.000
communities and within institutions. And the Mountain Meadows massacre, as

595
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.960
horrible as it was, I can't help, but it reminds

596
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:24.599
me of what happened in Salem. Fear prejudice, group think

597
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:30.719
lose all form of rationality, use utilizing God, utilizing scripture

598
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:37.960
to kill innocent people, falsely accuse people, bear false witness. Oh,

599
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:45.079
because Satan is out to get us. So on Netflix

600
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:52.400
right now you can look up American Primeval. First two

601
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.400
episodes are intense, they're brutal, they're violent, they're explicit. By

602
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.039
no means am I telling you should watch it, but

603
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:01.320
you can look it up if you so desire to.

604
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:05.239
As you watched the first two episodes especially, I think

605
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.719
it's episode one you're going to see at least their

606
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.800
depiction of the Mountains Meadows massacre. It's not completely accurate.

607
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:18.840
The way it went down. There was a series of attacks,

608
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:22.639
finally they surrender, and then they're led off and killed.

609
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.800
That's not exactly the way it goes down in the

610
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:29.880
Netflix show, but it doesn't. The Netflix show is not

611
00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:33.639
purporting to be historically accurate. I am grateful that the

612
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:37.280
show brings to mind to light in twenty twenty five

613
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.400
what happened in the Mountains Mountain Meadows massacre because we

614
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:48.840
can learn from it and be bothered by it and

615
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.599
consider many of the lessons that should come from it.

616
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.440
All right, I'll stop right there. Thanks to listening. Everyone,

617
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.119
have a great day. Godless,