Aug. 21, 2024

Heresy of Charles Finney

Heresy of Charles Finney

A recommendation of a message about the heresy of Charles Finney

Spreaker podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
PocketCasts podcast player badge
Amazon Music podcast player badge
Overcast podcast player badge
Audible podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
iHeartRadio podcast player badge
Castbox podcast player badge
Podchaser podcast player badge
TuneIn podcast player badge
Deezer podcast player badge
Pandora podcast player badge
RadioPublic podcast player badge
Podcast Addict podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
YouTube podcast player badge
Fountain podcast player badge
PlayerFM podcast player badge
Goodpods podcast player badge
Podverse podcast player badge
Podyssey podcast player badge
Breaker podcast player badge
Podurama podcast player badge
Audacy podcast player badge
JioSaavn podcast player badge
Spreaker podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon iHeartRadio podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon TuneIn podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon RadioPublic podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon Breaker podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon

A recommendation of a message about the heresy of Charles Finney

WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.919
Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

2
00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:13.160
the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone.

3
00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:17.039
It is Tuesday, August the twentieth, twenty twenty four. It

4
00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.800
is currently five twenty pm Central Time, and I am

5
00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:25.199
coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located

6
00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.600
right here in Abilene, Texas, where it's like one hundred

7
00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:34.960
and six degrees outside. It is miserable. It is so hot,

8
00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:39.719
so hot, and well that means when I broadcast, well,

9
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:41.479
I have to turn off the AC unit and it

10
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:43.719
gets really warm in here. So it's going to get

11
00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.960
warm here relatively quick. But so I debated, do I

12
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:50.759
do it broadcast now or do I wait? But I

13
00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:54.039
felt like I have to do this broadcast right now

14
00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.479
because I'm looking at something on the sermon's two point

15
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:01.079
o app and I'm like, that's just not right. I'm

16
00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.439
going to do what I can to fix that, to

17
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.840
improve that, because I think everyone needs to listen to it.

18
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:10.560
So I'm going to simply the goal of this broadcast

19
00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:14.680
is to simply point you to a different broadcast so

20
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:17.439
that you will go listen to them and give them

21
00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.239
another download, another stream. I'll give you all the information

22
00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:25.519
in just a second. But you know that we have

23
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.719
been currently doing a series on revival, and we've been

24
00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:34.760
utilizing an article from the June seventh, twenty twenty four

25
00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:38.680
edition of the Sword of the Lord newspaper, and the

26
00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.560
name of the article is the Holy Spirit and Revival.

27
00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.439
And you've heard some of my frustration with the article, right,

28
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.040
how they've quoted things from acts but skip the next verse,

29
00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:51.239
How they take things from acts and almost make it

30
00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.920
prescriptive instead of understanding that it's simply descriptive. Just so

31
00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.280
many issues, and whenever the subject of revival is talked about,

32
00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:02.359
if I'm just being honest with you, I get so

33
00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:07.560
frustrated by it. I get so frustrated by it. And

34
00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:13.639
I think the reason so much discussion about revival is

35
00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:20.039
so frustrating, so erroneous, so just confused, is because it's

36
00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:24.000
been influenced by a certain individual who is to be

37
00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:29.520
blamed for a lot a very wrong ideas that are

38
00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:35.800
very prevalent in evangelicalism and some elements of fundamentalism. He

39
00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:41.039
is very much responsible. Now, I can't tell you the

40
00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.639
exactly I think the first time. I could be wrong,

41
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.639
but I believe the very first time I ever heard

42
00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:53.280
this man's name mentioned was in an independent Fundamental Baptist church.

43
00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.919
I believe it was in Papillion, Nebraska, and maybe during

44
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.919
a sermon or something, they were mentioning the need for revival.

45
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:07.560
We need a revival in America. The country is falling apart.

46
00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:10.199
We need you know that type of message. We need revival,

47
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.639
we need revival, we need a revival, like during the

48
00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:18.960
time of Charles Finnie, and I was like, who's Charles Finny? Right?

49
00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.039
So I'm like, okay, okay. So I ended up at

50
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:27.680
the Divine Truth Bookstore in Papilion, Nebraska and they had

51
00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:30.319
a they had this little what was it called Last

52
00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:35.960
Call for Revival, Last Call for Saving America. I can't remember.

53
00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.159
It was like a little comic book almost by Jack

54
00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:43.439
Chick Remember Chick tracks, remember that, And it was like

55
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.080
it was like a little booklet, but it was done

56
00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:48.960
like almost as a comic book, right, and it was

57
00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.960
all about that, hey, we need revival. And it was

58
00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:55.919
based off the writings of Charles Finny. So I think

59
00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.439
that was the first time I'm like, okay, so this

60
00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.159
is what this is what revival, Liz, this is what

61
00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.159
we need for revival. And if we don't have revival,

62
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.520
they're basically gonna come to our house and take our

63
00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:09.319
Bibles and we're gonna be put in prison. Okay, so

64
00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:12.080
I can't remember everything I carry. I had the book.

65
00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.639
I carried it with me forever because I thought, this

66
00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:21.279
is like summarizing Jack Chick was summarizing Charles Finney's view

67
00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:24.360
on revival. Well, then I started digging in and reading

68
00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:26.600
a little bit more about Finny and read and then

69
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.519
I was getting a little concerned. I'm like, I don't

70
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:34.279
know here, Finny some of his I think I read

71
00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:40.360
a systematic theology by Finny, and I'm like, whoa, some

72
00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:44.680
of this stuff is like really messed up. I don't

73
00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.480
know what is going on here, but this sounds really troubling,

74
00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:52.800
almost theoretical. And then I can't remember which John MacArthur

75
00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:56.560
book it was. But at the end of John MacArthur's book,

76
00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.040
I don't remember what book it was, he had like

77
00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:04.160
an entire section on Charles Finnie and all of the

78
00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:10.199
damage Charles Finnie brought into evangelism, and I was like, whoa. Okay,

79
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.199
so wait a minute, Charles Finnie is not the good guy.

80
00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:16.879
He's not the hero Okay, so I need to start

81
00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:21.839
rethinking my understanding of revival, which I'm still unpacking. But

82
00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:25.199
so many times when I listen to messages or sort

83
00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.759
of the Lord read an article about revival, and there's

84
00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:32.240
so much of it, I'm just like, wrong, fraudulent, disagreed, disagree, disagree.

85
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:34.120
Now I'm not saying all of it goes back to

86
00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:37.759
Charles Finnie, but I believe a lot of it does. Now,

87
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:39.639
what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell

88
00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.720
you about a message entitled how the Heresy, How the

89
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:50.040
Heresy of Charles Finny Shaped America? How the Heresy of

90
00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:55.879
Charles Finny Shaped America. That message was published on Monday,

91
00:05:55.959 --> 00:05:59.360
August the nineteenth, so it was just yesterday. I've been

92
00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:04.959
looking at it. It's from Reformation Baptist Church. But it

93
00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:12.079
only has ten downloads, ten streams. That's ridiculous. Anything about

94
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.800
how the Heresy of Charles Finni Shaped America, whether you

95
00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.759
agree or disagree, you should want to listen to it,

96
00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:23.639
just because they're dealing with a historical situation that may

97
00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:29.160
be shaping Evangelicalism or Christianity today. That that is worth

98
00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:32.560
your time listening to. So everyone please look up how

99
00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:39.639
the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America by Reformation Baptist Church.

100
00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.360
It only has ten downloads. I will try to send

101
00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.800
out a link on the church one app to this

102
00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.839
when this broadcast is over, so that you can I

103
00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:52.319
want you to listen to it. I want you to

104
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:54.639
download it, I want you to stream it, and I

105
00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:57.120
want you to consider it. We will review at least

106
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.199
some of it, but the goal is I want them

107
00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.240
to get the download and streams because anyone willing to

108
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:05.240
engage and talk about things that are well in the

109
00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.279
past that could be influencing the present. Because see a

110
00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:12.879
lot of times people sitting in the pew, they just think, well,

111
00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.639
that's the way church has always done. Like sometimes people

112
00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:17.120
in the pew just think, well, this is the way

113
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.639
Christians have always thought. This is the right way, This

114
00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:22.560
is the right way to do this. This is what

115
00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.639
revival is. This is how we should do our revival,

116
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.279
this is how we get of a revival. And they

117
00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:30.959
don't realize in many cases, no, no, no, no, no,

118
00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:34.759
people haven't always thought that way. These are ideas that

119
00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:38.319
have a direct line to well a certain individual or

120
00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:41.480
a certain period in history. And sometimes Christians think No,

121
00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.120
it goes back to the Bible. No, it goes back

122
00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.959
to in many cases, maybe a finny or you could

123
00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:51.800
just name an influential pastor to this individual or this

124
00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:54.720
individual or this individual. But a lot of Christians don't

125
00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.480
have that knowledge of history to be able to realize

126
00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:00.639
that what they think and how they proceed, how things

127
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:03.839
should be. It's more influenced by someone in history than

128
00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.639
it is from the Bible. That happens over and over

129
00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:08.959
and over and christiandom because when you first enter into

130
00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.920
Christianity you don't have that context, and so everyone tells

131
00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.240
you this is the way. You just basically, even if

132
00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.040
they don't tell you, you're just like, Okay, this is the

133
00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:19.519
way we do things. This is what revival is, this

134
00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:21.279
is what it is, and this is how we do this.

135
00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:23.160
This is how we do this, this is how we

136
00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:25.360
do an altar call. We do this, we do and

137
00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:27.920
you just kind of accept this is the way things are.

138
00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.879
And in your mind you're like, well, that came from Jesus.

139
00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.519
You're like, no, no, no, that came from the eighteen hundreds.

140
00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.159
Nobody was doing that before the eighteen hundreds. Nobody was

141
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.120
doing that before the nineteen hundreds. These are new concepts,

142
00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.919
new ideas. They do not relate to church history. And

143
00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:45.120
sometimes when you study church history, you're like, well, wait

144
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.960
a minute. I thought everyone was a Baptist and everyone's

145
00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.759
saying just as I am, And all right, I thought

146
00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.120
everyone did an altar call. I thought everyone had a

147
00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:57.840
fall revival, and you're like, no, some of those ideas

148
00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.559
have nothing to do with historical Christianity at all. Zero

149
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.399
They didn't even show up for like eighteen hundred years,

150
00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:08.840
and sometimes people are shocked by that. All right, So

151
00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:12.240
anytime there's a broadcaster trying to get us back to

152
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.879
see maybe how the influence of someone, now, I may

153
00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:16.879
not agree with them, I may disagree with him. I

154
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.600
don't know, but I want us to all to go

155
00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.799
listen to it. So before we review that, though, let

156
00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.720
me do my own little work here on Charles Finnie,

157
00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:31.639
Are you ready, Charles Finny, I believe these are correct

158
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:40.759
years seventeen ninety two to eighteen seventy five, seventeen ninety

159
00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:45.120
two to eighteen seventy five, As always, those are dates.

160
00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.519
If I have them off or they're incorrect, please correct me.

161
00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:52.120
But somewhere between seventeen ninety two, and eighteen seventy five.

162
00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.399
He was a key figure and the Second Great Awakening,

163
00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.679
a period of intense religious revival in the United States

164
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:04.480
during the nineteenth century. Charles Finnie is often called listen,

165
00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:11.600
the father of modern revivalism. Finny is often called the

166
00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:15.159
father of modern revivalism. Now, so that means a lot

167
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:19.759
of discussion about revival or revivalism. It comes from Finny.

168
00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:24.879
It's not from the Word of God. It's from Charles Finny.

169
00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:30.759
I cannot stress that enough. Charles Finney's influence on American

170
00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:40.879
evangelicalism was profound, and his methods and theology left a

171
00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:45.279
lasting legacy. See, this is one of the things that

172
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:47.960
drives me crazy again, and I have already mentioned it,

173
00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.279
but let me just I'm going to be repetitive. So

174
00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.639
many Christians think that their views are biblical. They think

175
00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:56.559
they came from Scripture. No, they came from the preachers

176
00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:59.639
you listen to, who was influenced by this preacher, who

177
00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.200
was in influenced by this And what you're being influenced

178
00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:08.200
is man's reasoning, man's philosophies, man's ideas, man's concepts. But

179
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.879
you think it's coming from scripture because in many cases,

180
00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.039
the preacher just takes these ideas present them as if

181
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.639
they're scriptural, But in many cases they have just a

182
00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.639
direct historical line to one individual. And that's why Christians

183
00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.159
have to so many times learn to get to the

184
00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:31.399
scriptures themselves. Bible study methods, Bible study methods, Bible study methods,

185
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.080
where you're laying aside all these other reference tools and

186
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.360
you're looking at scripture. That's why I emphasize the Bible

187
00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:41.000
study methods over and over and over again. Now, if

188
00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.960
you don't know anything about the Second Great Awakening, this

189
00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.799
was a Protestant religious revival that began in the late

190
00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:51.519
eighteenth century and continued into the early nineteenth century. It

191
00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:55.799
was marked by a shift from traditional Calvinistic doctrines to

192
00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:01.679
a more armeny in theology, emphasizing free will. Right, So

193
00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.600
there was a shift theologically in America. We're going to

194
00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:08.639
move away from Calvinism to the idea of a libertarian

195
00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:11.519
free will and our many in perspective, right, there was

196
00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:15.519
a shift theologically. Now many cases, when you come into

197
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:20.000
Christianity later on, whenever you arrive in Christianity, you don't

198
00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.039
realize it, but you're entering into a stream of influence.

199
00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.480
You don't sometimes know what you're entering into. I had

200
00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.000
no idea when I became a Christian that I was

201
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.600
really entering into this stream of what was known as

202
00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.399
lordship salvation that I was kind of and I didn't

203
00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:39.320
realize I was kind of like right there almost at

204
00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.960
the all close to the beginning of it. I wasn't

205
00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.360
right there at the beginning, but it was still very

206
00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.399
relatively it was relatively new. And then I just kind

207
00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.360
of like, well, that's Christianity. I was just like, lordship salvation,

208
00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:55.600
that's Christianity. It comes from the Bible, No, it has

209
00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:57.840
it's coming from a book called the Gospel according to

210
00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.080
Jesus by John MacArthur. Okay, but I just assume that's

211
00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.600
because I didn't know any different, right, I didn't know

212
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.240
any difference. And I started noticing or learning a little

213
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.840
bit of difference when I continued to challenge and question

214
00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:13.120
and theology, and I left being a Baptist to becoming

215
00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.000
a Lutheran, and then I was wanted to become a

216
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:17.720
Lutheran pastor, and then I started learning Lutheran theology, and

217
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:21.120
I still didn't quite understand, like I still didn't have

218
00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.679
enough not but I began to realize, oh, there's there's

219
00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:26.960
some different ways of looking at things. I still didn't

220
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:31.080
quite understand because I was still bringing those lordship ideas in.

221
00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.600
But I was beginning to realize, wait a minute, maybe

222
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.639
these ideas, that's not all the way people have always thought.

223
00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:42.480
All right, but there's the second grade awakening. Now, what

224
00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.679
did FINNI bring in? What did FINNI bring in to

225
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.679
this period the second grade awakening? Well, Finny was known

226
00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:52.200
for his well, it depends on how you want to

227
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:59.879
define this innovative. You can call him innovative, unique, the heretical, damaging,

228
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:05.559
revival techniques. Finny was known for his new measures, which

229
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:08.720
included practices such as public prayers for sinners by name,

230
00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.840
the use of the anxious bench, a precursor to the

231
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:17.600
modern altar call an emotionally charged direct preaching aim eliciting

232
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:23.799
immediate conversions. Finny broke away from traditional Calvinist views, particularly

233
00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.399
the idea of predestination. He believed in the ability of

234
00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:29.879
individuals to choose salvation and emphasize human responsibility in the

235
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.440
process of conversion. His theology was more aligned with Arminianism,

236
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.559
focusing on the power of human will and the need

237
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.879
for personal holiness Beyond spiritual revival, Finny was awestly, deeply

238
00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:44.600
involved in social issues. He was an advocate for basically

239
00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:51.600
abolishing you know well he was, was he I don't

240
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:58.440
want to hum well, I know, he was. I I

241
00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:00.559
don't want to speak on that one. Okay, I'm gonna

242
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:02.480
set that one to the side. I was gonna. I

243
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:03.840
was going to say it, and then I kind of

244
00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.559
stopped myself. He was known for temperance and for other

245
00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:10.960
social reforms, believing that true revival would lead to moral

246
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.879
and social change. Right. So he was involved in a

247
00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:20.679
number of of like social issues, cultural issues. Hey, I'm

248
00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:22.360
going to look up something here. I'm going to look

249
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:25.360
up something because I I want to make sure I'm

250
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.799
one hundred correct here. I want to make sure here.

251
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:42.440
Let's see here. Uh, let me look here. Let me

252
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:42.919
see here.

253
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.759
I want to see I want to see here if

254
00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:52.080
I'm correct. Okay, Yes, okay, I wanted to I wanted

255
00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:54.200
to verify, Okay, I had to look something up.

256
00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:54.559
Yes.

257
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.840
Finny was that he was. There was a lot of

258
00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.039
social issues that he got in and he was very

259
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:11.039
much involved in let me go find this one here, Yes, Okay,

260
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.240
all right, I wanted to make sure. I wanted to

261
00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.240
make sure Charles Finney. So he was known for being

262
00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.840
involved in a lot of these social issues, right, a

263
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.240
lot of these social issues. And one of the things

264
00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:27.000
he fought and defended and basically wanted to abolish any

265
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.919
form of slavery that's a good thing, temperance, alcohol, and

266
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.440
other social reforms. But here's the key. His understanding of

267
00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:39.639
revival would lead to moral and social change. He saw

268
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:43.960
revival as a way to social change. So we talked

269
00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:48.159
about this in our last episode, where I believe revival

270
00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:53.200
should be more about a spiritual I'll refer to it

271
00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.840
as a revelation where you are confronted with the reality

272
00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.440
of God and the reality of self, and then you're

273
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.519
driven to the imputed righteousness of Christ. It's not about

274
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:08.079
moral changes, not about moral reformation, it's not about social reformation.

275
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.599
It's about you being broken over the reality of who

276
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.839
God is and the reality of your sin. And then

277
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.680
you run to Christ and you're overwhelmed with a sense

278
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.960
of gratitude and love for what Christ has done for you,

279
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.079
which leads to a deepening relationship with Him and a

280
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:28.799
more passionate pursuit of him, all right, not necessarily moral change, right,

281
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.480
So he he went with the idea of that revival

282
00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.920
was the way to moral reformation, moral and social reformation,

283
00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:42.640
changing the culture, changing people along those lines, all right,

284
00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:47.319
So I wanted to just verify. So, yeah, he definitely

285
00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.319
was against slavery and again, these social things, many of

286
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.319
these things that would be in complete agreement with the

287
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:58.559
issue is I'm you know, well, we can get into

288
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.440
the politics and all of those different things. Finny was

289
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:07.880
instrumental on finding a college and which became a hotbed

290
00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:14.240
for the movement against slavery and other social reforms. And

291
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:16.319
this is college was also notable for being one of

292
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.960
the first to admit African Americans and women. So there

293
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.319
was there was some good things he fought for. I

294
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.079
don't think we can just overlook that, right. His abosh,

295
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.880
his wanting to abolish and stand against slavery is a

296
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.359
good thing. His his willingness to admit African Americans into

297
00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:34.640
his college, that's a good thing. There's a lot of

298
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.279
good things Finny did. I don't think we can deny that.

299
00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:38.920
There was a lot of good things he fought for,

300
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.079
and a lot of good things he challenged, I don't

301
00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:43.440
I don't agree with his theology, but I don't think

302
00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:48.440
we can we can overlook that, all right. So I

303
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.279
just wanted, I'm glad. I wanted to verify things and

304
00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:54.880
make sure, all right. So his influence, Finny's methods laid

305
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:59.880
the groundwork for modern evangelical practices, including alter call and

306
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.960
revival meetings. Please note the alter call and revival meetings.

307
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.200
That goes more to Finny than it goes to anything

308
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:14.680
in scripture. Alter call and revival meetings is a Finny influence.

309
00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:20.240
I think that that's very important to see, all right.

310
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.319
His emphasis on personal decision and the ability to choose

311
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:28.920
salvation directly influence the development of evangelicalism in America. Finny

312
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:34.279
was widely influential. He was also controversial. Some critics accused

313
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:38.319
him of undermining traditional doctrines promoting a form of Plagianism,

314
00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:41.039
which I think he clearly did, the belief that original

315
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.559
sin did not taint human nature and that humans could

316
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.759
achieve salvation through their own efforts. Charles Finny's revivalistic work

317
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.039
significantly shaped American Protestantism, particularly through the emphasis of individual

318
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.480
choice and salvation, and his advocacy for social reforms. His

319
00:19:55.599 --> 00:20:02.880
legacy continues to influence contemporary evangelicalism. All right, So I

320
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.720
apologize for getting a little just pausing there, But the

321
00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.039
only reason I did is I got ready to send.

322
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:14.880
I'm like, well, let me verify this. Did he did? He? Yeah?

323
00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.440
And he he did stand against slavery. So I think

324
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.519
that that was good to clarify. All right, So there's

325
00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.480
a little bit about Finny. There's a little bit about Finny.

326
00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:29.359
I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, I think I

327
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:30.880
think that that's I think that's good.

328
00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:31.240
All right.

329
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.759
I think I think that's a good overview. But just

330
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:39.519
note his influence cannot be minimized. And what you need

331
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.359
to realize is, over and over and over, so many

332
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.079
things that you think and have feel about Christianity, so

333
00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.519
many of that comes from other sources other than the Bible,

334
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:50.680
even though you think it does. All right. Now, with

335
00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:54.559
that said, now let's go to the message I want

336
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.960
you to go find again. The name of this message

337
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.799
is how the Heresy, How the Heresy of Charles Finny

338
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:05.960
shaped America? Again. This is from Reformation Baptist Church. It

339
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.839
only has ten downloads. Ladies and Gentlemen, we need to

340
00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:11.720
fix that. We need to get this to one hundred, right,

341
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.240
come on, download it, stream it all right now. No,

342
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.680
maybe the numbers are not working because the whole sermon

343
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.240
audio platform is having all kinds of issues with numbers

344
00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:29.359
and reflecting things. But yeah, okay, I think we're good.

345
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:31.359
So let's listen to this. I was gonna see if

346
00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.440
there's anything else I wanted to share about Finny, but

347
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:35.680
I think I kind of give you my personal journey

348
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:37.720
where I came in contact with him. I give a

349
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:42.319
little bit about the second grade awakening, his techniques. Some

350
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.799
of the things he did support that were good stood.

351
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.880
Abolishing slavery were for that temperance. I'm definitely not a

352
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.480
fan of alcohol, so well. Starting a college where he

353
00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.599
admitted African Americans, that's a great thing. Admitted women, Okay,

354
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:58.480
that's a great thing, all right. So a lot of

355
00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:01.440
things he definitely stood for or we would we would

356
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.119
be in support.

357
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:03.920
Of, right.

358
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.200
But it's theology. Mmmmmm, that's where the problems are. So

359
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:12.119
let's see how this program again, how the heresy of

360
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:17.279
Charles Finny shaped America Reformation Baptist Church. Let's see how

361
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.839
they handle this. Are you ready here?

362
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.279
We go, Charles Finny is in hell?

363
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:28.039
So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques?

364
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:36.079
Okay, well, that came in with a. They came in

365
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.720
with both barrels blazing. Okay, let let's stop. Let's stop

366
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.759
right there. Okay, they said, Charles Finny is in hell?

367
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:47.319
So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques? WHOA,

368
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.759
let's pump the brakes on that. All right, let's pump

369
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:53.839
the brakes on that. Okay, let's make this very clear.

370
00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:00.480
I get really nervous when Christians look at other professing

371
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:06.759
Christians and saying they are in hell. Salvation is not

372
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:13.240
dependent upon how perfect your theology is. Salvation is dependent

373
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.519
on if you're looking to Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

374
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.839
All right, now, I know Finny has some things that

375
00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.680
are maybe somewhat troubling. You're like, man, is he relying

376
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:26.759
on works more than he is on the grace of God?

377
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.960
But that's a problem with a lot of Christians. Okay,

378
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:36.400
so they just immediately said he's in hell. He's in

379
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.400
hell now unless they have a direct phone line to

380
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.559
God in heaven and God is giving them information who's

381
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.680
in heaven and who's in hell. We always need to

382
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.440
be very very careful with that. We can say Charles

383
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:50.680
Finny maybe was a heretic, we can say his teaching

384
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.920
was heretical. But even that, I'm going to be very

385
00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.279
careful before I start seeing someone's in hell. Right, My

386
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:59.240
hope is that they trusted in Christ for salvation. At

387
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.839
the same time, their theology was an absolute mess. It

388
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:06.279
was damaging, it was damning, it was heretical, and I'm

389
00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.519
not a fan and we need to speak against it.

390
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.240
I can condemn the theology. I'm going to be very

391
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:14.359
quick careful before I start throwing people in hell because

392
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.640
that's not my place, all right, So not a fan

393
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.359
necessarily of that beginning, but let's see what they have

394
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:21.799
to say.

395
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:26.319
Charles Finny is in hell, So why do so many

396
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:38.519
churches continue to use his techniques? Welcome to the Conquering Truth.

397
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.039
I'm Dan Horne, I'm Jake quin unto it, I'm Charles Churutchill,

398
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:42.240
and I'm Joshua Horne.

399
00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:46.599
Charles Finnian Is systematic theology says basically, when you're saved

400
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.319
that all your sin's removed, and in his autobiography he

401
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:51.720
talks about how when he was justified that all his

402
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:56.720
sin just disappeared. And then he goes on and says

403
00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.200
that that, you know, the scripture proves that the there's

404
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.759
abundant grace given to people, to believers, so that all

405
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.880
their sins are moved. So he's confused and he's inconsistent

406
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.759
as teaching. But he has this underlying principle that salvation

407
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:14.599
is not about God, it's about man. It's about the

408
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.799
work of man. That man does not have a nature

409
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:19.920
that is depraved, that he's not dead in his sins

410
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:23.079
and trespasses. So therefore you can talk anybody into going

411
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:25.920
to heaven. And so based on that, he came up

412
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.000
with a series of techniques.

413
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:28.880
It was used during the Great Awakening.

414
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.000
All right, So they're putting forth the idea that Finny

415
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:35.079
seemed it to basically teach, once you become a Christian,

416
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:37.680
all your sins disappear, and I guess basically you don't

417
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.240
sin anymore. I'm sorry, Charles Finni has influenced more Christians,

418
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:43.400
and you care to admit, because Christians talk that way

419
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:45.440
all the time. So I'm not even surprised by that.

420
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:50.920
He holds to a Pelagian idea a more Pelagian perspective.

421
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:55.759
We've talked about the eighteen points of Pelagianism, which, yeah, basically,

422
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.480
people are not fallen in Adam and their will is

423
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.359
completely free, and so using the right techniques, you can

424
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:05.200
get them to choose God, all right. So, and of course,

425
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.839
if you're already holding to a Pelagian view of man,

426
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:09.720
then it would not be that difficult once you become

427
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:11.960
a Christian not to sin, because you don't even have

428
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:14.920
a sin nature before you're saved. So according to the

429
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.440
Pelagian perspective, you could be perfect even without salvation, so

430
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.400
obviously then you could be perfect with salvation, all right.

431
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:27.079
So okay, all right, let's see they're kind of just

432
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.759
throwing all these accusations out. I thought maybe they would

433
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:32.880
start in a little bit like, well, you know, but

434
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:34.799
maybe they're just throwing these things out and then they're

435
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.759
going to back up and give a little background and

436
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:38.960
try to let's see how they approach this.

437
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:43.799
For the Second Great Awakening, that were to manipulate people

438
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.839
into accepting Christ, and the results weren't very good, but

439
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:51.440
that's what he used. And from that then you see

440
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:55.160
the church is adopting those same techniques. But I think

441
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.160
one of the things that we forget is just where

442
00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:59.599
those techniques led to. And I think one of the

443
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:01.799
things that we want to do on this podcast is go,

444
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.559
you know, those ideas and those doctrines they lead to

445
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.279
some really bad places, and specifically they end up with

446
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.039
you know, we look at the drag Queen's Story Hour, Well,

447
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.519
that really does come from Finny's theology and from Oberlin

448
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.400
College where he was the person who set up the

449
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.839
theological department at Oberlin. And that's actually a logical following.

450
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:27.559
So how does a theological seminary end up getting us

451
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.200
into the state where the United States is right now?

452
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.720
Now? I don't know if you can say Finny is

453
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:39.160
responsible for drag Time story drag Time story Time. I

454
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:45.759
I that Ooh, that's a wild accusation. That's a wild accusation.

455
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.240
That's a wild accusation. Finny very much was about holiness.

456
00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:55.640
I don't know if that's fair in any way, shape

457
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.720
or form. Now you could argue that once you start

458
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:01.920
saying you can use these techniques, well then where do

459
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:03.880
the technique sup I think this goes back to a

460
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.920
more of a discussion about the regulative versus the normative principle,

461
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:09.960
How is the church going to operate under the regulative

462
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.920
or normative principle? You can only do what is clearly,

463
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:16.559
clearly toll commanded. What is you have a clear example

464
00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:18.839
of is clear commanded. If you don't have that, you

465
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.039
can't bring it into the church. You can't use it,

466
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.200
you can't do it. That's the regulative principle. What the

467
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.200
normative is like, I can do anything in the church.

468
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.440
I can bring any technique unless it is specifically prohibited

469
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:34.599
in scripture. Those are wildly different philosophies. I don't think

470
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.720
you go to Finny to blame him for that. Blame

471
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.680
him for the techniques he used. Don't blame him with

472
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.920
what people may have done with those techniques. Right. You

473
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.440
may argue, well, these techniques led people to you. You look,

474
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.000
I just I just think how people may use a

475
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.720
technique is different than blaming the technique. Right. It's like

476
00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:59.799
people may take a theology and do damaging things to

477
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:03.240
the theology. That doesn't make the theology wrong, It makes

478
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.519
what people did with the theology wrong. Right, What people

479
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:09.559
did with the techniques may have gone way beyond what

480
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:12.880
Finny would have ever accepted. So I think that's that's

481
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:18.680
pretty that's that's I don't know about that. Okay, let's see,

482
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:20.079
let's see where they're gonna go here.

483
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.519
Well, something that that takes quite quite a bit of time,

484
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:27.720
you know, because you know, Finny was back in the

485
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:31.000
early you know, nineteenth century, so you know, two hundred

486
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:36.279
years ago, and he before he gets into his perfectionism

487
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.680
like you were mentioning, he was, he was a very

488
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.960
staunch Arminian and you know, he at the time there was,

489
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:47.079
you know, in the church at least that he was in,

490
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.079
there was a lot of Calvinism. So it was kind

491
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.319
of either there are some Armenianism out there, but there

492
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:55.440
was a lot of Calvinism or universalism that the huge

493
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:58.880
Armenian movement hadn't really started yet. But he's he's kind

494
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:00.480
of one of the one of the people, you know,

495
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:05.160
revitalizes Armenianism in America where he you know, he's a

496
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.839
Presbyterian when he gets you know, converted quote unquote converted,

497
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:16.279
and he and you know, the Presbyterians were doctrinally staunch Calvinists.

498
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:18.759
But and so he ends up going through and becoming

499
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:23.720
a Presbyterian minister, where he says he you know, affirms

500
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.880
the Westminster Confession, obviously a Calvinistic doctrine, believing the doctrines

501
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:30.200
of Grace, and then later he says, well, I never

502
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.200
read that. I had no idea this, that all that

503
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.400
stuff is complete garbage. And so he's someone that you

504
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:37.519
know now he's in he's a minister in a in

505
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:43.079
a Calvinistic denomination, and he's a very staunch, aggressive Armenian really,

506
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.039
you know, coming after Calvinism in a way that other

507
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.079
groups hadn't before because the Methodists were Arminian, but they

508
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:52.160
were a bit more passive about it often. But he

509
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:54.960
was someone who was out there who would write systematic theologies,

510
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.279
who would go you know, head to head, you know,

511
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.799
doctrinally to argue for a minion is right.

512
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.480
And I think if you look in England, the Methodists

513
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:08.720
were very fiercely Armenian. But in the United States they

514
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:12.240
tried and basically they were defeated, and so they were

515
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.119
a lot more low key about it because it wasn't

516
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.440
until after people like Finni that it really starts to

517
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.000
take off. Because the Methodists, like you said, they were Armenian,

518
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.119
and it wasn't that they weren't trying to spread it.

519
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:24.720
It's that the Baptists wouldn't accept it, the Presbyterians wouldn't

520
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:29.359
accept it, and all the major denominations wouldn't accept their Armenianism.

521
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:31.759
And then you have FINNI come along saying.

522
00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:33.400
Look at these huge crowds I have, Look at how

523
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.680
the much success I have because all these people are

524
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.880
following me. That then causes the churches to follow after

525
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:40.599
him and say, hey, this doctrine works.

526
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.599
I think calling him an Emenion is showing his grace.

527
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.920
It was a full bloom leading or rejecting original sin

528
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:51.240
and the imputed rits of Christ.

529
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:57.960
That's fair, and I think it's fair to say that

530
00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:00.680
he was a full bloom Poleage. And I think that

531
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:05.960
that's fair. Now here's the question. You may be a Pelagian,

532
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:11.119
maybe a semi Pelagian, maybe an Armenian, maybe a Calvinist.

533
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.640
Salvation is not depend on whether you're a Pelagian, semi Pelagian,

534
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:18.880
Armenian or a Calvinist. Salvation is dependent on you putting

535
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.119
your faith in Jesus Christ and you're trusting in his

536
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.079
finished work and his imputed righteousness. That's what salvation is.

537
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:29.440
So I just want to there's no there's no need

538
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:31.759
to just immediately throw the man in hell. There's a

539
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.720
there's a need to say, here's what he taught, and

540
00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:39.000
we reject it out right because this doctrine is heretical.

541
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.599
I think that. I think that's important, all right, But

542
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:42.599
let's let's see where they go.

543
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:45.799
I mean, if you go back to this on sent

544
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:47.720
out of door, I think they would have made a

545
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.440
pretty strong, somewhat of a connection between Polaguionism and and

546
00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:54.119
full blown Arminianism. I mean, there was you know, there's

547
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:57.319
a definite language I think there that connected those two together.

548
00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.680
So I mean, it's it's it's only.

549
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.799
We've only tried created semi Plagianism and call it Armenianism.

550
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:05.920
But how much different is it really?

551
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:05.960
Is?

552
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:07.839
Right, we've softened our language over time.

553
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.359
I mean, this is this is one of this is

554
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.400
part of the problems, right.

555
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.160
It's one of the real problems that have gone on

556
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:13.839
because I mean you made some really bold claims in

557
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:16.400
the beginning talking about over in college and talking about

558
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.359
how that Finny has had this influence that not only

559
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.559
has it just not only has it affected like how

560
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:27.000
we do soul winning, but the theology that he's pushed

561
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.559
and the way that he pushed it, in the way

562
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:30.880
it was thought of that when we look at the world,

563
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:32.319
some of the things we like, when we look at

564
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:33.759
and we lamit, how could we get to the point

565
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.119
where we would have drag queens reading to children in libraries?

566
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:38.720
How could we get there?

567
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:41.319
You're saying theology there.

568
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:44.240
Is a causal connection, right that that theology matters.

569
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:51.640
And okay, I oh see drag queen, drag Queen story time.

570
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.559
I was calling it drag time story time. Okay, drag

571
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.359
queen story time. I'm sorry, trying to trying to keep

572
00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.960
all of this straight because they're just making so many accusations,

573
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.480
so many accusations, so it's hard to keep all of

574
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.920
this straight. So let me just stop right here. What's

575
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.960
the I don't think it's it's it's not fair to say, well,

576
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.199
there's are Finney's theology led to drag Queen story time?

577
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:20.480
That's just no. Look, Sonomon Gomour existed before Charles Finnie. Okay, Adam,

578
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.159
I mean Adam's sons, you know, Cain and Abel. There

579
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:26.960
was murder before there was Charles Finnie. Okay, we can

580
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.760
go on. There was that's called that what leads to

581
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:35.000
many of these actions. Is human depravity not theology, right,

582
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:40.199
It's human depravity operating and conflict in many cases with theology.

583
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.039
Now you can argue, well, some theology may give ry.

584
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:49.280
I just know, I think human depravity manifests itself with

585
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.840
or without theology. Now, some may take the a theiological

586
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.920
position to justify it. But I don't see a lot

587
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.440
of drag Queen storytime going I'm doing this because of

588
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.280
the theology of Charles Finn. I don't. I'm not seeing

589
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.159
the correlation there. I'm not seeing the correlation. All right,

590
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.320
I'm not seeing the correlation. Let's see if they clarify

591
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:10.800
any of this.

592
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.639
And he understood that. I mean like when Joshua was saying,

593
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.360
I mean he wasn't. There were a lot of people

594
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:19.119
who would go out and all they really cared about

595
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:22.440
was just maybe either preaching or technique. He said, I

596
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.800
want to teach theology. I'm going to go out and

597
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.400
fight with anybody. I'm going to overpower them, I'm going

598
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.159
to beat them. I'm going to show that this is right.

599
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:31.840
He wanted to change people's minds about how they thought

600
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:33.719
about God, how they thought about sin, and how they

601
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:34.559
thought about the world.

602
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:39.159
An his title is the Father of American Revivalism, and

603
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:41.199
so you know, he might not be a household name,

604
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.440
but in evangelical churches, he you know, he can draw

605
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.239
a direct line to a lot of things that go

606
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:50.320
on every Sunday morning, to the things that he was pushing.

607
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:51.800
You know, he didn't.

608
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.679
Now that I agree there's things going on in churches

609
00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:00.119
that can be directly tied back to Finny that I

610
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:04.599
can agree with. Drag Queen's story time. Come on, now

611
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.000
that that's a stretch. Okay, now I do I do it. Now,

612
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.880
I know what they're trying to say that, But I'm

613
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:14.280
just saying, a manifestation of many things is just a

614
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:18.039
result of man's depravity. It doesn't require, you know, putting

615
00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:19.559
all the blame on Finny.

616
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.159
Didn't come up with all of it necessarily, but he was,

617
00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:26.320
you know, one of the you know, one of right,

618
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.039
the most famous preacher from the second grade Awakening, and

619
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:32.440
and he's the one who popularized these things and said,

620
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.559
you know, you can cause revivals. You just need to

621
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:37.800
use the right techniques. You need to use, you know,

622
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.000
the right emotional appeals, the you know, the ultra call,

623
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:43.360
you know, all these different things and then you can

624
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:47.400
get people to be converted. Is not God's work, it

625
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:49.239
is our work, and we can make it happen.

626
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.719
And people's schedule revivals, and that comes back from I mean,

627
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.920
that's that's phineasm right, when you schedule a revival, when

628
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:59.360
you're saying man can cause a revival to happen, that

629
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:04.239
is Finny. And how many churches schedule revivals, right, you see,

630
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:06.400
and that they were going to have a tent revival. Well,

631
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.280
you can't do a revival if it's the work of God.

632
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.400
It has to be the work of man. And that's Finny.

633
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.199
And that was what Finny was teaching. And that's you know,

634
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.679
Billy Graham and all his revivals, all his crusades, they

635
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.559
all come back to Finny as the theology that was

636
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:22.960
driving this thing that has really polluted the church.

637
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:24.800
I mean, one of the things we really want to

638
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.159
tie together here is I mean, I grew up in

639
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.280
churches where Finny was held up. I was I was

640
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:32.920
told that Finny was a great man of God. The

641
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:35.719
people that said that, I don't think they had actually

642
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.239
read I mean, like if they had read some of

643
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:40.760
the quotes from Finny were going to read tonight. I

644
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:45.239
think they would have been shocked, because what's happened is

645
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:49.199
is a lot of the churches would reject many of

646
00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:54.239
the theological things that Finny said, but they've absolutely, like

647
00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:57.679
you said, they've absolutely adopted his practices. And there's this

648
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.239
part of it where the church doesn't believe that theology

649
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:04.280
causes practice. That practice and theology cannot be separated. And

650
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.519
that's kind of your argument with Oberlin Colleges is that

651
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:10.559
the theology, it flows into things, It makes real changes

652
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.159
in the way you approach the world, and it over

653
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.079
time that affects the culture.

654
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:19.840
And Finny was very adamant about that theology has to

655
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.960
be practical, it has to be applied. It has to

656
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:26.880
be that you don't just say, okay, there is no

657
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:29.559
total depravity. What that means is that you then have

658
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.679
to go and try to talk everybody into heaven. Because

659
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.760
anybody can be talked into heaven. It's it's your responsibility

660
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:39.039
now to save their soul. Because right so he was

661
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:42.679
very much on not just I mean, there are many

662
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.400
churches today where they may preach sound doctrine, but they

663
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:48.719
don't go Therefore, you have to go do this, Finny

664
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.840
was very adamant.

665
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:51.719
Therefore you have to go do this over.

666
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.119
And I think I do think it's very important that

667
00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.719
many of the people who promoted Finny or soted Finnie.

668
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:03.280
And I saw this in many independent Fundamental Baptist churches

669
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:06.639
because they did this frequently. They would promote like they

670
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:09.320
would promote one minute they're promoting Finny them, next minute

671
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:12.480
they're promoting Charles Hadd't Spurgeon. And I'm like, whoa, you

672
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:16.199
talk about contradictory theological perspectives. But they would act like

673
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:19.719
that Spurgeon was an independent Fundamental Baptist. And I'd be like,

674
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.360
and they And I've told before how much trouble I

675
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.199
got into. I got kicked out of the Bible Institute,

676
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:27.599
and I had to you know, I've talked about how

677
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.920
I got back in and all the ridiculousness of it.

678
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:33.880
But I got in trouble for supposedly studying Calvinism. Well,

679
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.360
I show up, you know, you know, in the back

680
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:41.000
and forth arguments with a stack of these little pamphlets

681
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.800
right of spurgeon sermons. Right, there's these little pamphlets and

682
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.119
I have them all marked, right, have these all of

683
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:53.599
them marked? And I come back and I'm like, you

684
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.599
have been handing out these sermons every month at the

685
00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.039
front of the church. You put them there on the

686
00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:02.480
altar saying, okay, hey, here's this month spurgeon sermon. Everyone

687
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:05.239
take it. I took every single one of them, read

688
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.639
every single one of them, marked all of them up.

689
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:12.360
I've got thirteen here that one hundred percent promotes and

690
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.400
teaches Calvinism. But I'm being kicked out of the Bible

691
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.519
Institute for possibly being a Calvinist. You're the one who's

692
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.079
promoting it and teaching it, but none of you are

693
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.760
reading them. It's all great to be handing out these things,

694
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:26.920
but nobody's reading it. But I'm actually reading it. Well,

695
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.320
same thing with Finny. You promoted Finny, I went and

696
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.679
bought the books, and I come back going, what in

697
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.320
the world are you doing? So so many Christians love

698
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:37.599
to say, oh, this is a great book, or read this,

699
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:40.639
or read and they've never actually even read it. And

700
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:42.719
I think a lot of times with Finny, he's just

701
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:46.039
promoted because well, Finny, Finny revival. We need a revival

702
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:50.039
like Finny. And they've heard stories about it, they've heard antidotes.

703
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:52.360
But You're like, have you ever read a systematic theology?

704
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:55.880
Have you ever gotten into his actual and you're and

705
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.400
never mind? And so that that is very frustrating.

706
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.880
People in College, which continues to this day as being

707
00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:07.719
one of the most influential universities on the left, I

708
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:11.480
mean like enormously influential since Finny was there in eighteen

709
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:12.320
thirty five.

710
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:14.400
So much so.

711
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.280
And it comes back to this idea that what you believe,

712
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.559
you must change the world with it, and that was

713
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.639
definitely Finnish few and he pushed it very hard.

714
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.400
And one of the things that Finny would also say

715
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:27.400
is that revivals are in our mini and thing that

716
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.000
cowness do not have revivals. And you know, a lot

717
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.159
of this discussion, you know, is kind of coming off

718
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:35.440
of a book that the church is reading our church,

719
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:38.239
the one no, not the one true Church, but.

720
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:42.320
Just so Oberlin College, he kind of puts it on

721
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.559
the left. But let's be honest, even if you want

722
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:47.960
to put them on the left and somehow accuse him,

723
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:50.079
I don't, you know, I don't know what they are today.

724
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:55.320
But Oberlin, you know, when he was advocating for abolitionism, right,

725
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:58.360
for the for getting rid of slavery, when he was

726
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:03.360
when he was arguing for admitting African American students and women.

727
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:06.719
I mean, those are social things that I think was

728
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:10.000
a good thing. A Christian college saying, hey, we can't

729
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.920
be discriminating people and we can't be supporting the slavery

730
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:17.199
of human beings. Okay, that's I think that's a good thing.

731
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:19.880
They kind of somehow make it sound like a negative thing. No,

732
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.199
a Christian university is saying, we're going to act on

733
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.719
Christian principles. We're not going to support We're gonna be

734
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:29.639
We're gonna we're gonna support abolitionism and the ending of slavery,

735
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:33.000
and we're going to admit people who are our African

736
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.039
Americans to learn theology, and we're going to let women

737
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:40.400
take classes as well. Yeah, so he wants they want

738
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.679
to say, well that college now is this big it's

739
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.239
a big, powerful college. On the left, Well, let's talk

740
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.880
about the positive things the college did do. I don't

741
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.360
agree with everything Finny did or believe, but let's not

742
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.440
you know, overlook some of these positives.

743
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:57.679
Our local church, you know, which is Revival and Revivalism

744
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:00.760
by Ian Murray, and in this book he you know,

745
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.119
starts at the first grade Awakening and then kind of

746
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:05.679
goes through the end of the second grade Awakening and

747
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.920
shows how, you know, how originally there were these true

748
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:13.920
revivals that were based on you know, Calvinistic doctrine, and

749
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:17.400
then how these revivalistic techniques led by you know, Finny

750
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:20.199
and people like him come in and really changed the

751
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:22.760
church for the worst and give us, you know, the

752
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.960
church that we have today. And you know, he really

753
00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:29.519
you know even you know kind of uh shows how

754
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.679
Finny even like in his autobiography, how he's talking about

755
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:34.880
how that you know, he was saved and you know

756
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:36.840
all the you know, the precher that he was under

757
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:39.079
was just a you know, someone who had no understanding

758
00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:41.800
of salvation and and then you know, completely switched and

759
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:43.880
convert to you know, follow Finny. And he kind of

760
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:46.679
shows how, you know, he's he's making stuff up that

761
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:49.400
you know, the it appears at the beginning of the

762
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:53.119
second grade Awakening was found that on Calvinism was founded

763
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:56.199
on sound doctrine. But then it quickly gets out of

764
00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:00.440
hand fall you know, hull, foolish practices come in, false

765
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.039
oction comes in, Finny comes in and takes it to

766
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.679
the next level and ends up in a bad place

767
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:09.039
where the people who were supposedly being converted that there

768
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:10.920
was no change in their life. And in you know,

769
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:13.559
a few years, it was evident that they weren't actually saved,

770
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:15.320
and you know, and.

771
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:15.679
It was.

772
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.519
See what they just did there. People supposedly got to

773
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.320
say it, but there was no change in their life.

774
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:29.039
They just equated salvation with change in life. You equate

775
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.920
salvation not with change in life. You equate salvation with

776
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.719
faith in Jesus Christ, who keeps the law for you.

777
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.400
And you're saved by an imputed righteousness, not an infused righteousness.

778
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:43.000
If I'm saved by an infused righteousness, I look for

779
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:46.000
a change of life. If I'm saved by an imputed righteousness,

780
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:48.000
I don't look to the change in my life. I

781
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:53.079
look to the perfection and Christ's life. So they're going

782
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:58.280
after Finny and they just well, what is that?

783
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:04.440
Okay, it's even evident to Finny, right, even Phinny recanized

784
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.039
that the people that allegedly were saved by him, but

785
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.840
then being a full blown or many interor plagion, is

786
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:12.840
that he would say, well, they lost their salvation because.

787
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:13.400
He saved them.

788
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:17.079
It was just that they then lost they destroyed their salvation.

789
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:18.159
And so.

790
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.119
You know, with that view, that also means that you

791
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.199
can say whatever you did was pragmatic and worked, and

792
00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:27.519
then it was their fault that it felt that they

793
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:29.920
fell away, and not your fault that they weren't really

794
00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.719
saved in the first place. And so his techniques never

795
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.360
got challenged because he came up with an excuse as

796
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.119
to why his techniques couldn't be challenged.

797
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:39.079
I mean, one of the other things the book really

798
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.000
lays out, I think really clearly is that there was

799
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:45.559
a war within within Christianity over these issues that was

800
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:48.280
going on during that time period. I mean, Finny was

801
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:50.840
actively going to war, like we've talked about, and one

802
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:52.719
of the things that was happening was people who had

803
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:57.320
sound doctrine were basically going, well, we know Finny loves God.

804
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:00.159
Even though Finny was out there preaching sermons like where

805
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:02.800
he would say create make in yourself a new heart,

806
00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:05.880
create a new heart in yourself. He will quote where

807
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:07.599
God says, I will put a new heart in you.

808
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:09.239
I want you to take your heart of stone and

809
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.079
give you a heart of flesh. And then he would

810
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:14.519
preach making yourself a new heart, and he was saying

811
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:16.079
things like that, and Finny was going, how can two

812
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:18.840
walk together unless they be agreed. He was attacking the

813
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:23.000
doctrinal issues, and they were really they were refusing to

814
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:26.199
actually go to war over doctrine. They were refusing to

815
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:28.760
call him out and say to mark him as a

816
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.400
man that needs to be avoided, to mark him is

817
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.440
someone that was evil. And that continue, Like I said,

818
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:35.719
that continues. I mean, if you go and look online,

819
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.559
there are a lot of churches that will call Finny

820
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.440
out today. But the practice of the church, if you

821
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.000
look at it, we're still we're not really calling out

822
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:43.599
that practice.

823
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.320
And what happened is.

824
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:50.400
Again they're making strong accusations. Here's what I would say.

825
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:54.119
His theology, I got no problem saying his theology was evil,

826
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.320
his theology was heretical, his theology was messed up. I'm

827
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.559
not going to get into did he love God? Not

828
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:02.800
love God? I'm not going to get did he believe

829
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:05.239
in God? Not believe in God? Was he trusting in Christ?

830
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:08.079
Not trusting in Christ? Unless I've got a clear quote

831
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:10.760
from him saying I do not trust in Christ for

832
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.599
my salvation. I reject the sacrificial, the substitutionary atonement, of

833
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:18.199
Jesus Christ for my sins. Now, if you've got something

834
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.280
like that, then okay. And by no means am I

835
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:22.199
an expert on Vinnie. So I got no problem. If

836
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.360
you've got that and we can look at it, I

837
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:29.280
just oh, we can condemn the theology, we can condemn

838
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.519
the practice. Maybe a man who was very confused theologically.

839
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.880
But what's required for salvation is simply trusting in Christ

840
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:42.159
for your salvation, acknowledging you are a sinner and you

841
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:47.079
need Christ salvation. That's what it's about.

842
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:51.719
Its like in eighteen thirty five when he's you know,

843
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.480
Oberlin College is trying to recruit him and Hudson College

844
00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:56.280
is trying to recruit him both to be the head

845
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.679
of their theology department. But Hudson College is saying, this

846
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.679
is a man of God, and so when we confront

847
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.480
him with the truth of soteriology, he will repent and

848
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:09.320
he will start to preach the truth.

849
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:10.800
So we want to recruit him.

850
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:13.679
Really stupid when you think about it, but this is

851
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:14.960
what Hudson College.

852
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:15.199
Was trying to do.

853
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:18.320
Will recruit him to be the head of the ar

854
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:21.119
theology department, and then we'll change his theology so that

855
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:25.800
it's the correct biblical theology. And Oberlin College is already

856
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.400
the founder of it, already believed in in you know,

857
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:32.800
what is an entire sanctification is the term that they

858
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:34.400
use for sinless perfectionism.

859
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.920
That he already believed in entire sanctification.

860
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.719
So he's trying to recruit Finny to overland in Hudson.

861
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:43.559
He didn't want to change him at all, and Hudson's

862
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.360
trying to go, look, if we got him in here,

863
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:48.280
we know he's a man of God, so we can

864
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:50.239
change him instead of going a.

865
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:51.079
Wolf's a wolf.

866
00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:55.239
But they couldn't see the doctrine actually makes people wolves.

867
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:57.880
If you reject the nature of God, if you reject

868
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.719
the nature of man, you are a wolf if you're

869
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:03.400
trying to lead churches, so why would you invite a

870
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.320
wolf in to teach at seminary?

871
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.760
And they were being forced or forcing themselves to accept

872
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.000
him because the way that it had been set up

873
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.719
is either you are with Finni and for revivals, or

874
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.320
you're against Finny and against revivals because look at the

875
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.320
great results Phinny's getting. Look at how you know people

876
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.320
are having these dramatic reactions when Phinny's preaching look at

877
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:28.239
all the professions of faith he has. Do you not

878
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:29.360
like professions of faith?

879
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:30.360
You know, if you.

880
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:32.360
Don't like Finny, you don't like you don't like salvation.

881
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.159
And so that's how Phinny with intentionally portraying it, and

882
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:38.920
in the people are having trouble, you know, you know,

883
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:41.320
drawing lines in this then and saying saying no, just

884
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.119
because you look you look good when you look at it,

885
00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.960
you know from a certain angle, just because you look

886
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:48.280
good doesn't mean that you are good.

887
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:51.239
And it goes back to what happens at churches today,

888
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:54.480
which is the same Finny theology, which is, it doesn't

889
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:58.000
matter what Christ you profess, as long as you profess

890
00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:01.280
somebody who you call Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if

891
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:04.519
he's an idol, as long as his name is Jesus Christ.

892
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.000
It doesn't matter if he's the god of scripture. As

893
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:10.000
long as you name the name of.

894
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:11.639
Jesus Christ, you will be saved.

895
00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.320
And so they make Jesus into an idol like Finny did.

896
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:18.719
And the response wasn't of the church? Now these people

897
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.880
should really think, I mean, not that God can't save them.

898
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.800
God can do what ever he wants, but these people

899
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:27.760
that are responding to Phinny should think they're responding to

900
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:29.320
a man, not the Holy Spirit.

901
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.440
And then you know, with Finny we have the benefit,

902
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.440
you know, of being able to look at where he

903
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.639
ends up, which is in the Christian perfection, the saying

904
00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:47.159
basically that a full, complete, perfect obedience is possible in

905
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:49.960
this life and even required in this life.

906
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:54.320
And so here's a quote. Now they're getting ready to

907
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.079
make a quote. I was going to look up some

908
00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:04.239
things here. Charles Finny's beliefs about God, Jesus, and salvation

909
00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:07.400
were controversial and diverged in several key areas from what

910
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:11.199
is traditionally considered orthodox Christianity. Right, So here's some things.

911
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:14.360
When it comes to Finney's view on God. In Jesus,

912
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:19.119
Finny accepted the traditional Christian view of God as triune being, Father, Son,

913
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:21.800
and Holy Spirit. He believed in the divinity of Jesus

914
00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:26.039
Christ and the necessity of christ atonement for sin. However,

915
00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:30.480
his understanding on how salvation was applied differed significantly from

916
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:32.880
traditional views. So let's just make sure we understand that

917
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.760
he believed in the triune God, he believed in the

918
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:38.519
divinity of Christ, and he believed in the necessity of

919
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:45.880
Christ's atonement for sin. Now we may disagree with everything

920
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:49.000
after that, but I see where you got to be

921
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.800
careful about throwing the man into hell. Now his views

922
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:54.960
of salvation. He believed in human responsibility and free will,

923
00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:01.760
he believed in moral government, rejected original sin, and he

924
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.480
believed in perfectionism. All right, so those things I completely

925
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.079
disagree with almost everything he believes after that. But if

926
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:11.800
he believes in the Trinity, he believes in the deity,

927
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.199
and he believes in the necessary of christ atonement for sin,

928
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.800
I mean, I'm saying everything else may be a complete

929
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:26.480
train wreck, But I mean, does that not is salvation

930
00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:28.800
based off what Jesus did? Or is it based off

931
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:32.000
what we believe about certain philological issues?

932
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:38.280
Quote from Finny's ratings where he talks about that this

933
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.239
was just the revelation that I needed. I felt myself

934
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:44.519
justified by faith, and so far as I could see,

935
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:46.880
I was in the state in which I did not sin,

936
00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:50.400
instead of feeling that I was sinning all the time.

937
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.000
My heart was so full of love that it overflowed.

938
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:56.239
My cup ran over with blessing them with love, and

939
00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:58.760
I could not feel that I was sinning against God,

940
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:01.519
nor could I cover the least sense of guilt for

941
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:05.239
my past sins this experience, I said nothing that I

942
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:08.280
could recollect at the time to anybody that is of

943
00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:11.880
this experience of justification. He's talking about, you know, his

944
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.519
conversion experience, and he's saying that, you know, he has

945
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:18.960
this feeling that he's moved to this state where he

946
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:21.400
no longer where he's not sinning anymore.

947
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:25.840
And let me make it very clear, his perfectionism is

948
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.480
completely heretical. But I want to make it very clear.

949
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:33.440
I've heard Christians of all philological backgrounds basically make it

950
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:35.320
sound like when you become a Christian, now you can

951
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:37.280
say yes to God, you can say no to sin.

952
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:42.679
And they may not teach perfectionism, but they sure at

953
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.320
least imply it that you can almost become that. So

954
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:49.119
if you're going to condemn Fenny for that, we need

955
00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:52.159
to condemn a good portion of evangelicalism Christianity, even within

956
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:53.360
any reform circles.

957
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:57.400
And the big problem with Finny right is he is

958
00:53:57.440 --> 00:53:58.039
a liar.

959
00:53:58.719 --> 00:53:59.840
He lies all.

960
00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:03.280
The time, and so there were years where he was

961
00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:06.760
saying he sinned after he was saved, and then later

962
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:09.840
he rewrites his history and says, no Ah, my sin

963
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:13.440
disappeared when I was justified. So he changed his life

964
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:18.840
story to fix what he has now adopted as his doctrine,

965
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:20.880
like he teaches in his systematic theology.

966
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.039
If you read that first quote, somebody might go, well,

967
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:26.639
he's just describing an experience. But here in a systematic theology,

968
00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:30.599
he's actually going to talk about justification in a theological manner.

969
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:35.719
Full present obedience is a condition of justification. But again

970
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:39.320
to the question, can man be justified while sin remains

971
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:44.199
in him? Surely he cannot, either upon legal or Gospel principles,

972
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:48.199
unless the law be repealed. But can he be pardoned

973
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:52.079
and accepted and justified in the Gospel sense while sin,

974
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:56.920
any degree of sin remains in him. Certainly not. And

975
00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:59.840
so Finny is saying there very clearly, if I believe,

976
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.320
if I believe that I've been justified, anytime that I

977
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:06.480
say I've been justified, there can be no sin in

978
00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:07.000
me at all.

979
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.719
Now I believe that's completely heretical. But see that to

980
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:16.119
me is not that far removed from lordship salvation. Well,

981
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:18.679
if you were saved, you were gonna do this, this, this,

982
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:20.199
and this and this, and if you don't do this,

983
00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:22.360
then you were never saved. And now it may not

984
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:26.360
be as extreme as they'll be literally no sin, but

985
00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:28.360
it's almost like, well, you're gonna do this, and you're

986
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:29.679
gonna do this, and if you don't do this, then

987
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:32.519
you're not saved. And even they made a reference, well,

988
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:34.280
some of these people who made a profession of faith,

989
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:36.760
well their lives were never changed, so they were not saved.

990
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:40.280
So even you were acknowledging salvation requires a certain level

991
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.840
of change or you're not saved. I believe both sides

992
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:46.280
are wrong. Salvation is about the perfection of Christ, not

993
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:51.480
any change sin, lack of sin, level of sin. In me,

994
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:57.719
it's all in the perfection in Christ. Now, look what

995
00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:00.960
Finny is saying there, I I believe is completely heretical

996
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:04.880
and it borderlines destroying the Gospel. I got no problem

997
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.519
coming close to saying that he believes you're saved by works.

998
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:10.719
I got no problem saying that that's very close. So

999
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.920
I got no problem calling into question that, Hey, this

1000
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:19.440
theology is very very close to absolute damitable heresy. I

1001
00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:21.760
got no problem saying that. But I just see that

1002
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:24.800
there's a lot of similarity to it. And how you

1003
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.960
find in other circles that these guys would say is okay,

1004
00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:33.639
I think it's prevalent everywhere. So all right, let's continue,

1005
00:56:33.719 --> 00:56:36.119
We'll wrap this. We're going to wrap up our review part.

1006
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:38.000
Remember the goal here was not for me to do

1007
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:39.599
much of a review. The goal is for me for

1008
00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:41.239
you to get you to go listen to this. But

1009
00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:42.440
I'm just getting you started.

1010
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:48.159
There can be no sin whatsoever, and I mean, he

1011
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:50.960
says later, he says, if a Christian sins, then he

1012
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:53.639
in that period of time is no different than an

1013
00:56:53.719 --> 00:56:57.000
unsaved man under the law, under the condemnation of the law,

1014
00:56:57.079 --> 00:56:59.000
under what is going on, he would be identical to

1015
00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:02.119
an unsaved man. And so if Finny holds that he

1016
00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:06.039
has been justified and has maintained being justified for any

1017
00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:09.480
period of time, it is by being without sin. Because

1018
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:13.000
he's very clear, it is impossible to be justified and

1019
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:14.119
have sin present in you.

1020
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:17.599
Because there's there's different flavors of sinless perfectionism. There's people

1021
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:21.239
who say, well, you know it is possible, you know.

1022
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:23.199
So there was a lady when I was growing up,

1023
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.880
we would go to a nursing home to a Bible study,

1024
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:29.079
and the lady every single time for like years, or

1025
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:31.000
ask the question is it possible.

1026
00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.360
To live in?

1027
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:35.840
Is it possible to live in this life and not sin?

1028
00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:39.480
So so she's saying is perfection possible? Not that you

1029
00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:41.760
have to have it, but is it possible when the

1030
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.199
answer is no, if you're wondering. But that's that's one

1031
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:47.280
type of sinless perfectionism, that is it possible to be perfect?

1032
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:49.360
And then there's other ones that say you know you

1033
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.599
have it's expected of you, or that to be a

1034
00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:54.840
Christian you have to be perfect, and that if you're

1035
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.079
not perfect, you're not a Christian. Then you also have

1036
00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:00.480
the question of well, when someone does sin, are able

1037
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:02.559
to be saved again or is it a permanent thing?

1038
00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:05.199
You have to be permanently perfect from salvation and then

1039
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:07.480
you can get like I mean, obviously no one's perfect,

1040
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:09.960
So how do you get to perfection? Some people get

1041
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:12.920
to perfection by saying you throw out the law. But

1042
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:16.599
Finny actually was against Antiinomianism at least how he defined it.

1043
00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:18.920
He believed in God's law and said you have to

1044
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.920
keep God's law to be perfect, and he said you

1045
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.639
can if you sin, there is a you can repent

1046
00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:29.519
and then be saved and go to heaven. But you do,

1047
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:31.599
you know, you have to get back to that perfect state,

1048
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:32.679
and it's.

1049
00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:34.679
Your work that cleanses you from that sin because you

1050
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:35.360
must repent.

1051
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:38.920
But he still does have to redefine the law to say, like, well,

1052
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:42.480
you can't commit adulterree, but you know the whole thing

1053
00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:46.039
about having sinful desires, about having lust and that that

1054
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:48.639
being sin and that being adult rate, Well that doesn't

1055
00:58:48.679 --> 00:58:50.079
work to say you're perfect.

1056
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:51.639
To be sinned for any to be sin free for

1057
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.400
any period of time, even if if you say the

1058
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:58.119
law still exists. You have to diminish the law. There's

1059
00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:00.360
no you know, or just be it just a major hitt.

1060
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:01.960
But you have to be both.

1061
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:06.280
But and some sometimes you just have to be really blind, right,

1062
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.360
because Finny is rewriting his life story and he does

1063
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:11.360
that in his autobiography a lot, and he does that

1064
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:15.039
throughout his life, and as his theology changes, he rewrites

1065
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:18.400
what happened to him before. And yeah, he kind of

1066
00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:18.920
explains it.

1067
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:21.000
Yeah, I didn't say anything to anybody.

1068
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:23.400
But he said the opposite to people, So that meant

1069
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.880
that he lied then, which means that he wasn't saved.

1070
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:30.039
According to his own definition. And so he's in this

1071
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:34.480
situation where he's proven to not be a believer because

1072
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:36.559
he believes false doctrine and then he lies about the

1073
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:39.559
doctrine that he believes, or he's so blinded by his

1074
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:40.960
sin that he's lying about it.

1075
00:59:41.559 --> 00:59:43.239
But either way, he.

1076
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:47.760
See what they just did. He's proven not to be

1077
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:52.440
a believer because of his actions. Oh so he has

1078
00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:54.719
to be perfect in order to be a believer. Isn't

1079
00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:59.039
that what you're condemning Finny for believing. You're pointing out

1080
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:03.639
that he he was involved in lying, deceit, he believed

1081
01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:05.920
in false things. I got no problem saying all of

1082
01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:09.800
that is true. But his being a believer is believing

1083
01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:12.840
in the perfection of Christ. Because you are a sinner.

1084
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.960
You're saying, no, no, no, no, it's it's not about

1085
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:18.360
being perfect being to be a believer. But then you're

1086
01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:21.519
condemning him for his lack of perfection and therefore saying

1087
01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:23.840
he's not a believer. So is it based on what

1088
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:25.719
we do or is it not based on what we do?

1089
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:31.440
You're literally kind of setting up the exact same system. Well,

1090
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:33.639
you can't do this. You can't do this because if

1091
01:00:33.639 --> 01:00:37.199
you do this, you're not a believer. Well, the only

1092
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:39.039
difference is you just say you have to reach a

1093
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:42.440
certain level of goodness to be a believer. You're just

1094
01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:44.599
not going as far as Finny was saying you have

1095
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.440
to get to perfection. You're like, well, we can't get

1096
01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:49.360
to perfection, but we have to get to a certain level,

1097
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.239
or we're not a believer. I'm saying both systems are fraudulent.

1098
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:54.679
You're a believer based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

1099
01:00:54.880 --> 01:01:01.880
Nothing to do with what you do or don't do.

1100
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:01.760
Is not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

1101
01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:05.239
He's not believing in the God who sent his son

1102
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:07.119
so that the Father would be exalted.

1103
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:12.880
Again, that's a major claim that he doesn't believe in

1104
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:16.360
the God of the Bible. I don't know. He may

1105
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:21.119
have some wrong ideas, but from my understanding, he believed

1106
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:22.920
in the Trinity, believed in the deity of Christ, and

1107
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:28.199
believed in the atonement being necessary. The atonement provided by

1108
01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:32.000
Jesus was necessary for our salvation. So I don't know.

1109
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:34.440
You can go listen to the rest. The whole goal here,

1110
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:36.519
I know already went an hour. The goal was just

1111
01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:39.239
to say go listen to this. It's called how the

1112
01:01:39.239 --> 01:01:45.039
Heresy of Charles Finny shaped America, How the Heresy of

1113
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:48.920
Charles Finny shaped America from Reformation Baptist Church and only

1114
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:52.159
has ten downloads. I don't know why it only has ten.

1115
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:55.079
Those numbers are wrong, those have to be wrong. Go

1116
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.880
listen to it, go download it, follow them, and give

1117
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:03.199
them your full attention, because whether I agree or disagree,

1118
01:02:03.320 --> 01:02:06.280
it's I'm so happy to see someone dealing with such

1119
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.480
an important subject. And I do apologize when I was describing.

1120
01:02:09.639 --> 01:02:11.599
Let me go back to what I was going to

1121
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:15.079
originally read because I misread it. I corrected it, but

1122
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:17.639
I still was. It bothered me the whole time that

1123
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:20.719
I stumbled over it. Let me see where I found it.

1124
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:25.400
Where is it? Hang on if I can, If I

1125
01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:27.599
can find it, let me go go all the way

1126
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:30.800
back here to the top, because I had pulled some

1127
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:35.559
notes on Finny. Oh here it is beyond spiritual revival.

1128
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:38.519
Phinny was also deeply involved in social issues. He was

1129
01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:42.840
an advocate for abolitionism. There we go, so I wanted to.

1130
01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:45.400
I was going to say it incorrectly. The main reason

1131
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:47.400
I stopped myself was now because I knew I was

1132
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:49.159
getting ready to say it incorrectly. I was going to

1133
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.239
say a bowlinish abolitionism. I was going to say abolish,

1134
01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:56.119
but abolitionism. The reason I stopped myself was immediately I

1135
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:57.760
was like, well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait

1136
01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:00.639
a minute, is that okay? Did he advocate for that?

1137
01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:02.199
So then I had to look up. I had to

1138
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:08.519
check check another source. Yes, he definitely supported abolitionism. Let

1139
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:12.519
me go back and find the rest of this quote. Abolitionism, temperance,

1140
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:15.599
and other social reforms, believing that true revival would lead

1141
01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:18.880
to moral and social change. So I do apologize for

1142
01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:23.079
some reason, I got to abolitionism, and my I was.

1143
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:26.639
I was first going, wait a minute, did Finny support abolitionism?

1144
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.079
So there was my first thought. The second thought was

1145
01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:31.559
am I saying the word correct or not correct? So

1146
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:33.440
because I thought I was going to be like, well,

1147
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:38.440
wait a minute, abolitionism, wait what? And so then I

1148
01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:42.360
had to correct myself in real time. So I apologize

1149
01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:44.960
for that. I know how to say the word abolitionism, okay,

1150
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.079
but I was I was just like, wait a minute,

1151
01:03:47.079 --> 01:03:50.599
did Finny, are we sure about that? I know the

1152
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.440
temperance thing. I know that I know many social reforms.

1153
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:56.079
I know that, okay, and then then I had to

1154
01:03:56.079 --> 01:03:59.320
realize Okay, Oberlin College, Okay, wait, they did first college,

1155
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.559
one of the first call just to admit African American students. Okay, okay,

1156
01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:04.760
all right, so then it all started making sense. But

1157
01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:07.880
I was in real time, and I apologize for that.

1158
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.119
I always like to correct my mistakes when I can,

1159
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:13.599
and when I don't, well, I apologize, but I want

1160
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.800
main thing is the goal here wasn't for me to

1161
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.159
give you even that overview on Finny. My goal here

1162
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:21.800
was to get you go listen to how the heresy

1163
01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:29.039
of Charles Finny shaped America, and it is Reformation Baptist church.

1164
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:31.519
I'm going to hit play on this on here, I'm

1165
01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:35.320
going to see here and then hit play.

1166
01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:37.840
Choles Finny is in hell, so why do so many

1167
01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:40.559
churches continue to use his techniques?

1168
01:04:43.639 --> 01:04:46.440
Okay? Yeah, the numbers aren't working. I was like, nobody

1169
01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:49.440
since this has went and downloaded it. Okay, their numbers

1170
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:52.920
aren't working, so maybe ten something is wrong with that.

1171
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:55.079
But let's get that number up to well over one hundred.

1172
01:04:55.639 --> 01:04:59.159
Because I'm just grateful that those guys got together turn

1173
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:02.559
on a microphone and covering a very important individual in

1174
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:06.360
church history, which utterly has shaped how Probably there's a

1175
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:09.639
lot of things your church is doing that comes from Finny.

1176
01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:13.679
There may be things you believe that come from FINNI.

1177
01:05:14.039 --> 01:05:17.800
So I'm not willing to necessarily throw him into hell,

1178
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:21.440
because that's not my place. God is the judge. I'm not.

1179
01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:27.400
What can I judge his theology? What can I judge

1180
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:31.400
his techniques, and I can throw them out. What I

1181
01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:35.960
can't do is necessarily throw him out of out of

1182
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.440
the Kingdom of God. What I can do is says

1183
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:40.639
I got no problem even referring to him as a

1184
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:43.000
heretical or as a heretic in some of his theology.

1185
01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:45.679
But from what we can tell, he seemed to believe

1186
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:49.000
in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the necessary,

1187
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:52.599
the necessity of the atonement of Jesus Christ for our sins.

1188
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:56.920
So that sounds pretty straightforward. Everything after that is a

1189
01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:59.920
total and complete train wreck. It may even be contradictory

1190
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:04.480
to those beliefs. But I mean, I have problems with

1191
01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:07.920
people's theology all over the place. So even even these guys,

1192
01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:10.119
I was like, well, wait a minute, you're saying, well,

1193
01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:12.239
these people weren't saved, and these people weren't saved because

1194
01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:14.599
their lives weren't changed. So you're kind of requiring a

1195
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.280
level of perfection in them in order to prove to

1196
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:19.519
be safe. So I feel like you're doing in some

1197
01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:23.920
ways just it's a Finny light. You're just not going

1198
01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:26.320
as far as Finny went. And I think both sides

1199
01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:28.559
are wrong. Salvation is not dependent on what I do

1200
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:32.360
or don't do. It's dependent on what Christ did the end.

1201
01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:36.880
All right, So we'll stop right there. Thanks for listening. Everyone,

1202
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:38.719
have a great evening. Hey, go listen to it. How

1203
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:42.000
the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America. Go listen to it,

1204
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:44.400
Share it with your friends and family, have a good

1205
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:49.000
conversation about it. Give them a thousand downloads, follow them,

1206
01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:52.199
listen to everything else they did, because I want to

1207
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:56.800
support other ministries as well, and I'm just grateful. I mean,

1208
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:59.239
we obviously, you know, we could have a good back

1209
01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:02.159
and forth. We may not agree, we probably would agree

1210
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:05.360
on a lot because I'm definitely much more. I mean,

1211
01:07:05.559 --> 01:07:11.960
I'm very reformed to my soteriology. But I just yeah,

1212
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:13.840
but hey, that's where you come in. Now, you go

1213
01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:15.800
listen and tell me what you think. Everyone, have a

1214
01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:16.880
great evening, God bless