Sept. 29, 2024

Christianity and Sin Pt 1

Christianity and Sin Pt 1

We look at how Christianity has tried to explain the reality of sin throughout church history

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We look at how Christianity has tried to explain the reality of sin throughout church history

WEBVTT

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All right. This morning, in churches all across the United

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States of America, when they begin their worship service, somewhere

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close to the beginning, they will say something similar to this.

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If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves

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and the truth is not in us. But if we

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confess our sins, God, who is faithful and just, will

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forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Most

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Merciful God, we confess that we are in bondage to

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sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you

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in thought, word. Indeed, by what we have done and

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by what we have left undone, we have not loved

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you with our whole heart. We have not loved our

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neighbor as ourselves. For the sake of your son, Jesus Christ,

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have mercy on us, forgive us something similar to that

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that has been happening in churches for pretty close to

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two thousand years, where the worship service begins with some

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type of general confession of sin. Now, the fact that

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that has been happening in churches for basically two thousand years,

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and it continues even to this very morning, that should

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tell us something correct. That should tell us that everyone

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who shows up at church still does what sin. They

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continue to sin, and this reality led me last week

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to say the Christian life is a life of sin.

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The Christian life is a life of sin, even though

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that reality exists, even though it is confessed, especially within

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the non Catholic evangelical fundamentalist world. The idea is that

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the Christian life is not a life of sin, but

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the Christian life is a life of victory. It is

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a life of overcoming sin. It's a life of basically

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being holy and being godly. But it's those people out

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there who are the ungodly, or if you're in a

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more lordship world, the reason some live a life of

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sin is because they were never saved and their profession

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in Christ is false. It is not true and this

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and most people are just kind of comfortable with the

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way it is. It doesn't really bother them. They kind

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of shrug their shoulders, They don't give it much thought.

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Pastors can say pretty much anything from the pulpit about

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this area, and as long as it sounds like he

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hates sin and he's telling us to be good people,

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then okay. Nobody ever really breaks it down from a

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logical perspective, but then something will happen, something so called

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scandalous or some kind of big sin. Then everyone gets

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up and arms and they want something done. There'll be

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some kind of punishment, someone will be deleted from the

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face of the earth, and everyone will be good with it, because,

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in some weird way of thinking, it doesn't really matter

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how many sins we commit as long as we don't

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want commit certain ones, because certain ones are the end

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of everything. So this kind of weird existence, again, it

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doesn't bother the average person in the pew, and it

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obviously doesn't bother the average person in the pulpit, but

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it should bother all of us. So we started talking

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about it last week, right, we talked about we looked

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at how Lordship attempts to answer it, did we not?

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And that's what we did in the first hour, And

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in the second hour we went to the second therefore

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in the Book of Romans, Romans two to one, and

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what did that therefore tell us? Well, if we understand

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Romans one eighteen and following to be really a description

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of all of us, And that was my interpretation of

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Romans one eighteen and following, when it says God gave

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them over my argument is that God has given all

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of us over to the sinful nature, and we all

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still live with the sinful nature. Therefore we all steal sin,

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and as a result Romans two to one. Therefore we

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should not do what we should not judge, because whenever

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we judge, we're guilty of the same thing. And what

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did I try to explain? We may not be guilty

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of the same specific sin, but if you break sins

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into different categories, we are probably guilty of the very

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similar sin or sin in the same category. So that's

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kind of what we did in church. Then this week

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on the podcast, I have been addressing this issue over

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and over and over and over again, and I pointed

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people to a book called Six Secrets of the Christian Life.

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Six Secrets of the Christian Life, and we started taking

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this book apart because this book is an attempt to

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try to explain why Christians continue to sin. And then

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I started acting out this little skit on the podcast

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over and over and over about, you know, a police

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officer coming to a Baptist church and finding all of

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these dead bodies. And then we've been working doing this

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over and over and over. So let me break down

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at least how this book put forth their solution, because

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if you look throughout church history, there's been supposed solutions

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to explaining why we continue to sin. All right, So

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here's how the book broke it down. Are you ready?

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Number one, if you are a Christian, If you are

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a Christian, your body is dead. Your body is dead,

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all right. Everybody got that. The body is dead. And

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you may not understand dead in what way because my

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body is still moving around. Just go with me. The

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Christian body is dead according to this view. Everybody got that.

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Number two, the nature and the heart of every Christian

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has been completely changed and transformed on the inside. You

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have a new heart, you have a new nature. You

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are a new creature. The old is gone. All is new,

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and you have the spirit of God inside of you

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that empowers you. This is all the stuff that's supposedly

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going on on the inside of you, all right. So

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what's number one? According to this view, the body is dead.

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Number two, everything inside is brand new. The call is

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no longer coming from inside the house. All right. God

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went in, took out the serial killer. He's gone, and

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now everything on the inside is good right now right

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there kind of makes you stop and go, well, wait

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a minute, then, how does this explain? What? Why do

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we continued sin? Are you ready for? Number three? The body,

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because it is dead, cannot respond to the new nature.

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So on the inside, the inside is saying what do good? Do? Good?

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Do good? But the body is doing what. It's not

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even saying. No, it can't respond. It doesn't matter how

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many calls the nature gives to the body. The body

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is just dead to any spiritual anything. The body just

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there's not gonna respond. All right, well that kind of

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all right. That leads to some problem. Right, Well, how

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does this work? So what is this solution? Then? The

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solution is number four. So number one, the Christian body

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is dead. Number two, the nature and heart has completely changed.

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Number three, the body cannot resc to the new nature.

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Number four, a resurrection of the body must occur. Now,

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now we need a resurrection now of the body, and

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that resurrection is possible. This is just another solution within

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Christianity to this problem. All right, it's no more ridiculous

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than all the other ones if you really think about it. Okay,

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nobody has a good answer. But okay, so we need

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a resurrection. So then what are you left with? How

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do we get this resurrection? Right? How do we get

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this resurrection? So all of that I just outlined. That's

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in chapter one of the book. All right, that's all

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chapter one of the book, Six Secrets of the Christian Life.

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The rest of the chapters, I guess, and that's secret

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number one. Secret number one is your body is dead.

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This chapters two, three, four following each give another secret

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that try to figure it out, and it gets confusing

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from that point, right. So the next secret, and you

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can just write this one down, is that we need

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a mirror. We need a mirror. A mirror will fix

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our problem. And this is where the book gets really contradictory,

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because they said that we need a resurrection, right, Well,

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then they say we need a mirror. Now, guess what

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the mirror is the Bible. So supposedly, if we take

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the mirror, the Bible and put it in front of

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our dead body, then the mirror will help. And now

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this is where it gets weird. They change the language

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from resurrection to now transformation, that somehow looking into the

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mirror will begin to transform us. Now, wait a minute,

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this is confusing, right, because if my body cannot respond

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to spiritual my spiritual nature. Then what is going to

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motivate me to do? What to pick up the Bible?

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All right, so that's already confusing enough, right, but let's

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say an external source convinces me to pick up my Bible. Well, now,

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if I'm picking up my Bible, so the Bible is

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going to try transform the dead body, is going to

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somehow make the dead body come to life. Well they

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stopped in the next chapter. They abandon the word resurrection.

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So now it's like a slow transformation. Well, you said

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the body is dead. So do you transform a dead

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body or do you resurrect a dead body? And is

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a resurrection a partial thing? Because a resurrection would mean

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you would go from death to life, not part. So

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then it becomes more confusing. Well then, so then we

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got that far, and then I decided. Well, so then

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in my little skit that I kept doing, I was like,

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you know, hey, patrol, this is Patrol one. Headquarters, come in.

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And then headquarters would would say to Patrol one, go ahead,

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I'm at first Baptist church. I found three hundred dead bodies. Okay,

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well let's try to put a mirror in front of it. Okay,

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Well that didn't really explain anything. So then I was like, well,

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this gets even more confusing. Let's do this, Let's do

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an operation. Right, So I spent an hour doing an

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operation and trying to figure out the makeup of what

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we supposedly are on the inside, because if you look

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at church history, nobody can really explain it. Because during

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all of this this week, we've been reviewing sermons, and

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it gets really confusing, right because you have some sermons

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who make it sound like we have a new heart

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and we have a new nature. Well, in my mind,

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how is the heart and the nature different? Right? So

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does that mean we had an old heart and an

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old nature we got saved. Now we have a new

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heart and we have a new nature, plus we have

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the Holy Spirit. Some try to make it sound like,

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well we get a new heart, but then the old

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nature is there, so wait, so do we have so? Wait? Wait?

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Do we have a new heart? And almost inevitably, the

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more you try to break this down, nobody can really

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articulate exactly what the makeup of us on the inside is.

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And guests where every single sermon, every single thing I've

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read that talks about a new heart. Guess where every

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single pastor went when he says that we have a

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new heart. No, no, not Jeremy thirty one. But you're

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in the right you're thinking the right thing. Ezekiel thirty six.

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Every single one went to Ezequel thirty six, and every

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time they do that, I lose my Remember we went

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through Ezekuel thirty six. What did I have? You guys

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count how many times the word Israel was found? Because

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the entire chapter is about Israel. It's not about us.

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So you can't go to Ezekiel thirty six and tell

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me that I have a new heart when Ezequel thirty

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six is not promising me a new heart. It's promising

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Israel a new heart. And what does it say, right

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after they get a new heart, then you will be

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in the land that I promised your fathers. That's not

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the church. Then all right, So then I'm like, so,

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do we have a new nature, new heart? Nobody can

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really articulate it. It sounds like basically the basic premise

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is guess what, ladies and gentlemen, Everything on the inside

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is completely changed and you have the power of God

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on the inside. Yet this is how it's described. There

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is the leftover influence of sin well where is the

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influence of sin coming from? Like, so some try to

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put it in the body, so then separating again the

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body from the nature and it becomes confusing. So then

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I and you remember the argument I made last week,

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and I said it over and over and over, and

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I mean, AI gotten a big argument over it because

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it disagrees with me, But I don't care because AI

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has to pull from all of Christianity, which means basically,

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AI told me your perspective on this is outside of Christianity.

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But I don't care because Christianity is just a I

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had to admit Christianity is completely illogical on this perspective,

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but it said, ay, but Christianity would not go with

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my view of logic, And I'm like, well, logic destroys

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Christianity here, because my logic is this. If you claim

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that we have a new heart, new nature, and the

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power of God inside of me, all working to make

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me holy, everyone has to admit, which fact, we still

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sin and we can't be perfect. So what was my

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argument last week? Does anybody remember whatever is keeping us

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from perfection, whatever is keeping me from no longer sinning,

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by definition, would be what controlling me. It would be

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the greater power? Right, So then how do you explain that?

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AI was like, Christianity will not allow you to basically

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say that Christianity will not allow that. And I'm like,

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I don't care what Christianity says. Facts tell what are

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the facts? We sin? What are the facts? We cannot

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be perfect? Therefore we are in a perpetual state of sin.

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If I'm in a perpetual state of sin, you cannot

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tell me that I am free. You cannot tell me

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that I'm no longer in bondage. And how did that

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confession that's from a Lutheran confession? We are still in

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bondage to sin. Lutherans confess that we're still in bondage

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to sin. Well, you know, why would they confess that

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we're still in bondage to sin? Because we still say, right, so,

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how do we process all of that? All? Right? So

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here's what we're going to do. Here's what we're so

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says everybody got the basic parts down to at least

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that book are what are their solution? Number one? The

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body is dead. Number two, everything inside is new. Number three,

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the body can't respond to the new. A resurrection of

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the body must happen. And then somehow they can't really

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tell me how the resurrection occurs. It's almost like the

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resurrection is possible, But then they revert back to and

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again inevitable. What does everyone say. I mean they say

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it in a much more unique way. But what it

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comes down to is you just need to read your

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Bible more and you just need to study more. That's

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what it always comes down to, right, Well, yeah, they

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would admit that, we still send but I mean, it

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just makes no sense because if I can have a resurrection,

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and then if my body is alive to my nature,

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and if my nature is perfect, what would be the

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inevitable result of that? Should be perfect? But it comes

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down to if you'll just read and study your Bible more.

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Christians have been reading and studying their Bible for two

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thousand years. Has anyone figured it out yet? No? Okay,

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so reading this is what I would argue. Does reading again,

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I got to get myself in trouble. Does reading studying

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the Bible change your nature? No? It doesn't. What is

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reading and studying the Bible do that? It will point

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out what is wrong? Right? It just shows you. That's

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why it's a mirror, because it shows you what's wrong.

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Showing you what's wrong doesn't fix what's wrong? Correct? Does

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everyone at least agree with that? So here's what we're

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gonna do. I don't know which way I want to

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go here? All right, let's do this. Let's which one,

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Which way do I want to go? Because I've got

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a lot of different possibilities here. Let's let's go through this,

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all right, Let's steal in this hour Christianity and sin.

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That's what we're gonna go with, Christianity and Sin. And

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we're just gonna look throughout the ages, throughout Church history

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and look at the different ways Christians have tried to

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address this problem. All right, We're just gonna take a

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journey and look at the different thilological approaches to this issue.

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All right? Does that work? Then in the next hour,

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what we may do is go through church history and

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look at how the church history approaches the subject of

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the law, because this becomes a major issue as well.

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If you want to look since if you haven't been

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listening to the podcast, if you go to Romans chapter

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eight and look at verse ten. Real quick, Romans eight ten,

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Romans eight ten, All right, Romans eight ten. Everybody ready,

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and if Christ is in you. The body is dead,

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all right, that's where this all comes from. The body

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is dead because of sin, so that's why there the

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argument is, see, it's the body's fault, all right, but

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the spirit of life because of right because but the

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spirit is life because of righteousness. So they say, the

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spirit is where inside of us, and that's life. So

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on the inside we're spiritually alive, we're ready, we're perfect,

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but the body is dead. So the conflict is between

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these two sources, right, And so then they go on,

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what's the next verse? Talk about right? Continue, Okay, we'll

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give life to the moral body. So the argument is,

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you can see where the book comes from. Hey, we

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just need this resurrection. Now, you can argue throughout Church

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history some people say that a resurrection there is not

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a promise of a resurrection in this life. That's a

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view of eschatology about the resurrection or when we have

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a glorified body. All right. So but the issue is

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we got to somehow fix the dead body part. Right.

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If we can fix the dead body part, then everything

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will be somehow good to go. But the reality is

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this Christianity has grappled with the tension between the idea,

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idea victory over sin, and the lived reality that sin

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continues to be a norm in the Christian life. I want, ever,

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want to hear that again. Everybody pay attention to that.

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Everybody ready. Christianity has grappled with the tension between the

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ideal of victory over sin and the lived reality that

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sin continues to be a norm in the Christian life.

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All right, So Christianity has two things going on. An ideal, right,

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and this is what I always call the infocommercial Christianity.

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This is the Christianity sell and then we have the norm. Right,

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what is the ideal when you come to Christ? If

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anyone is in Christ as a new creation, all things

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pass away, all things have become new. That is what

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was sold to me from the moment I became saved.

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That was one of the little green memory card packet

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that me and Stacy both carried. Guess what that was

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one of the first verses we memorized. But guess what happened.

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I had to struggle with the reality that my life

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did not look like a new creation. And I had

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to struggle with that, and so I went through every

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kind of psychological way of trying to adjust this the

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average person in the pew doesn't stinking care. That's just

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the reality. If the average people in the pew cared,

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Christianity would be further down the road than addressing this.

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Nobody cares. Everybody just pretends that there's something that they're not.

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But here's the thing. If that's the ideal and the

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reality is that Christians continue to sin, you see what

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this leads to, right, what is the inevitable? What is

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some of the things this is inevitably going to lead

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to this contradiction? Okay, it's gonna lead many for those

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some people in the view, they're just gonna live in

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a perpetual state of doubt, confusion, no assurance, thinking they're lost.

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And usually in every church you may have one person

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that way, but most of the people are just they

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just kind of look at the other person as what

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what's their problem? What's their Everybody looks at them like

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they're the weirdo, like they should not be they should

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just get over it, Like what's the they're they're they're

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making a big deal out of this. And that's true

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even in church history. How many Luthers were there in

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church history? Not many? What was Luther constantly worried about

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he ain't camp saying I'm a center, I'm a center,

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I'm a center, I'm a center, And what was everybody

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else doing? Just get over it, Luther, get over it.

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Even if their system should have led to that, everyone

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talks a bit game, but most Christians just ignore the

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reality of their sin. So you're gonna it's gonna lead

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a lot of people to doubt. What else is it

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going to lead to? Well, it's gonna lead to you

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almost have to create a system where you can be like, what,

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all of these sins are just kind of venial and

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these are the mortal as long as you don't commit

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the mortal. We're all we've all agreed what we're okay,

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all right, Hey, your venal sins good to go. My

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video sins good to go. But you better not or

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I better not commit the mortal. Which is just weird, right,

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It's just so weird. And guess what, let's just be honest, Okay,

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nobody wants to admit this. This can lead to people,

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you know, we call it deconstruction in twenty twenty four.

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It leads to people turning on their you know, video

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camera and creating TikTok videos that say I used to

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be a Christian and this this stuff is trash, it's stupid,

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it doesn't work, it's ridiculous. You sold this trash. It

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doesn't work. I continue to sin. And but if you

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admit that you continue to sin, then and if you're

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not careful then and also what does it lead to?

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All kinds of philological approaches to try to address it? Right,

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That's why, let's where lordship comes from. And then and

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then and then if you don't like the way anyone

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else views it, you accuse them of being an anti Noomian.

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That's just just that's what everyone goes to. And the

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whole thing is just ridiculous, and it just it leads

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to confusion. But everyone admits, what is the norm of

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the Christian life? Sin? Now, I know lordship people will

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say that is not the norm of the Christian life

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and all. And what do you have to tell a

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lordship person who says that, If I have a lordship

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person says the norm of the Christian life is not sin,

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what do you have to do? Okay, all you have

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to do is say everyone should know these scriptures right,

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and we'll be looking at them in greater detail. Are

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you ready? Be ye? Holy as holy? That's found in Leviticus,

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and that's found in what first or second? Peter? Okay,

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Now all I have to say is have you ever

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done that? The answer should be no. If not, then

401
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that means what you are in a perpetual state of

402
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disobedience to that one law, Love God with all your heart, mind, body,

403
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and soul. Have you done that? Don't tell me I

404
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.440
do it some or I'm trying. No, no, no, no

405
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no no. What is the law? Demand perfection? So if

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they do not love God with all their heart, mind,

407
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body and soul, and they're not as holy as God

408
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as holy, then they are in a perpetual state of sin,

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which lordship should tell you what. You're not saved, But

410
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the people who hold lordship will still say they're saved,

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which is just the hypocrisy. There is astounding So every

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one should be able to admit word a perpetual state

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of sin. So here are some ways Christianity has tried

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to address this. You're ready for number one. I don't

415
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even know how this one addresses the problem, but they

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will say progressive sanctification. This is always the reform people.

417
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Progressive sanctification. I don't know how this fixes this problem.

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I don't know how this is even an answer, But

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even AI would revert to this sometimes, all right, and

420
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it drives me crazy. What do they mean by progressive sanctification?

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Sanctification is a progressive thing. It's a slow thing, all right,

422
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But listen for the key words. Are you ready progressive sanctification?

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This is the Reformed and Evangelical tradition. Sin remains a

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reality in the believer's life, but over time Christians are

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sanctified or made more are holy through the work of

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the Holy Spirit. Okay, now stop right there, all right,

427
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where's our first logical problem with what I just read?

428
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What is the first logical problem with this one? Just

429
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from that very first sentence? Okay, we pay close attention.

430
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Are we ready? Here we go? Sin remains a reality

431
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in the believer's life, but over time Christians are sanctified

432
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or made more holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. Okay, okay, Well,

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we could say, if sin remains a reality, then why

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do we act? Then how do we then throw some

435
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people out for committing a sin? If sin remains a reality,

436
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then what is going to happen in every church? Sin.

437
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So then how do some people get at communicated or

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thrown out or quote unquote whatever you want to use

439
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.559
the terms. Now, logically you would think, well, biblically, the

440
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only reason anyone should get in trouble is because they

441
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refuse to acknowledge their sin or repent. Right, you can't

442
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really get in trouble for sinning because everyone sins. All right,

443
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But that's not even the one I was thinking of.

444
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But okay, there was something else there that should have

445
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just jumped out at everyone. But you are probably so

446
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ingrained in the Christian world you don't see it. Oh

447
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there we go. Now, why would that be a problem, Sarah? Okay,

448
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if it's the Holy Spirit doing the work, what should

449
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be the first question? Why is it not perfect? A second?

450
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If it's the Spirit doing the work, then any lack

451
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of said work is the Holy Spirit's fault. So then

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they come along and say no, no, no, no, but

453
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we can stop it. Well, if I can stop it,

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then I am more powerful than the Holy Spirit. Not

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only that, If I am stopping the Holy Spirit because

456
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I don't want the work, where is that not wanting

457
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coming from? Because supposedly what has been changed the inside?

458
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So if the inside has changed and the Holy Spirit's

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living on the inside, then where is my not wanting

460
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.880
to change coming from. Someone's going to explain where the

461
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.920
not wanting to is coming from? And if the Holy

462
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.640
spirit's on the inside, could he not change my not

463
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:30.440
want to to want to in about two point three seconds?

464
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:36.680
That doesn't This doesn't explain anything, right, In fact, it

465
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.400
makes me what should In fact, let's just be honest.

466
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.279
I know it doesn't do this to the average person

467
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:44.519
in the view. This should tick off every Christian and

468
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.920
it should make us somewhat frustrated with God. Right, does

469
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:51.759
God want you to be holy? Who's supposedly doing the

470
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:55.000
work to make me holy? But yet I can't get

471
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:59.079
to perfection? Yet God then gets mad at me for

472
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.759
not getting to affection. But he's the one who's supposed

473
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:11.720
to be making me. Okay, come on, let's be on that.

474
00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:14.079
I know we're not supposed to say this in church.

475
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:20.039
That's maddening. That's just pure craziness. Right. That's like a

476
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:22.880
parent saying, Okay, I'm the one who's gonna give you

477
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.079
the ability to do this, and I want you to

478
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.359
do this, and if you don't do this, you're gonna

479
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:30.799
get in trouble. But I'm the one who's gonna give

480
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.240
you the ability to do it. But I'm for some

481
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.839
reason not going to give you the ability to do it.

482
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:40.799
Yet I'm still gonna punish you for not doing it. Well,

483
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:42.680
people would look at you as a parent and say,

484
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:49.720
what You're insane. If God wants me to be something,

485
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.440
then he's supposedly empowering me to be yet he won't

486
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.319
get me there. Yet I still remain in trouble for

487
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.079
not getting to where he wants me to get. And

488
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:00.839
he's the one supposedly giving me the power. It's confusing,

489
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.960
And then how much power does he give me? So

490
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.559
if Sarah is here in holiness, but I'm down here

491
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:13.039
in holiness, why does God want Sarah to be up here?

492
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:16.680
And he wants me down here? And who should Sarah

493
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:19.440
be met at? Can't she can't come to me and

494
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:24.079
say what's your problem? Because I can say God's working

495
00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:26.920
on me. Back off. God just obviously is not in

496
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.960
a hurry to give me anywhere else. Now, some people say, well,

497
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.000
now you're blaming God. Well, then if if you tell

498
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:35.920
me it's not God doing it, then it's not God

499
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:40.400
doing it. And if it's me doing it. Now you

500
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:43.000
see where it's gonna even get more confusing. Right, how

501
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:49.960
can I do it? Not? The only way I could

502
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:53.960
do it is if God completely makes me able to

503
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.160
do it. Just what is a common teaching in the

504
00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:02.240
reformed world is a teaching in the reform world? You

505
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.000
can keep the law. You've been made able to keep

506
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:09.599
the law. Well, if I've been made able to keep

507
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.720
the law, then guess what I should be able to do,

508
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:18.960
because to keep the law requires what. Well, if I'm able,

509
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.839
then I don't need God to do anything. He just

510
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:23.799
made me able. I should just be able to do it.

511
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:27.359
He said, Well, you're able, but there's things about inside

512
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:29.119
of you that doesn't want to. Well, then where is

513
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.480
the thing inside of me that doesn't want to? Right?

514
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:33.960
Where is that coming from? Because you tell me the

515
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.480
spirit is inside of me empowering me. Well, if the

516
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.960
spirit is empowering me, what would be the first thing

517
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:41.400
he should do to empower me to keep the law?

518
00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:45.680
To remove my not want to It's just it's stupid,

519
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:48.519
is what it is. Like. I'm so sick of hearing it.

520
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:51.640
It's just mindless talk. And as soon as you start

521
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:55.680
questioning this, Christians get ticked off at you. Christians get

522
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.000
mad like, don't get mad at me. I didn't create

523
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.680
the system, right, It's your responsibility to answer it, not mine.

524
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:07.799
All right, So let's let's take this apart, all right.

525
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.400
So sin remains a reality in the believer's life, but

526
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:13.519
over time Christians are sanctified or made more holy through

527
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:17.119
the work of the Holy Spirit. The idea is that

528
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.759
growth in holiness happens gradually. Though are you ready for this?

529
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:24.359
What do you think is gonna be said? After that? Though?

530
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:31.359
What do you think is gonna be said? Though? Perfection

531
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:37.880
is never fully attained in this life? What? Okay? All right?

532
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:44.960
So it's progressive, but it's progressive sanctification, meaning though I'm

533
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.200
gonna be what let's just we can revert. You can

534
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:49.240
either look at the glass half full or you're gonna

535
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:57.279
look at it half empty, right right, But let's just

536
00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.720
let's look at the reality. If I'm never going to

537
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:03.359
get than what is the reality of my life? Sin?

538
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:08.480
No matter how? Because and then how are you defining

539
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.840
that I'm becoming progressively more holy? Almost inevitably? What's going

540
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.960
to be viewed upon based off external actions? Right? Does

541
00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:22.199
external actions prove progressive holiness. No, there are lost people

542
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.079
right who used to do this action, this action, this action,

543
00:34:26.199 --> 00:34:29.400
this action, and for whatever reason they have stopped all

544
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:35.239
of those actions. Is that progressive sanctification? No, this just

545
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:43.880
behavioral modification. Behavioral modification happens where everywhere in society, it

546
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:49.159
does it not? So behavior can be modified with or

547
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:55.199
without God. There's people of all religions who talk about

548
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.360
I used to be this, Now I am this because

549
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.639
I converted to Allah because of this, because I became

550
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.480
a Mormon, or because I became a Jehovah's witness. Even

551
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:09.480
false religions have behavioral modification, does it not? So that

552
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:15.039
doesn't even prove anything. Sarah and I both over and

553
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.519
over through this entire discussion in the history of this church,

554
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:21.719
which verse has always bothered us, Lord Lord, did we

555
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:27.000
not do these things depart meaning all of that change

556
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:31.920
proved nothing that that shouldn't bother everyone should be like, well,

557
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.360
then that doesn't even all. I thank the God that

558
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:42.079
I'm not like these people. And who went home justified?

559
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:49.119
The one who wasn't changed In interesting, the one who

560
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.800
said I'm not like all of these people wasn't justified.

561
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.800
The one who was justified is the one who So

562
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:00.800
it doesn't even fit Christianity, right, it doesn't even this

563
00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:04.199
doesn't even make any sense all right? Now, this is

564
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:09.360
what this view is often called. And this, oh, I

565
00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:12.119
don't like this view the way they describe it, because

566
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:14.199
AI loves to go back to this over and over

567
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:18.880
and over. This view is sometimes called already but not yet,

568
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.920
already but not yet. This is where Christians are declared

569
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.960
righteous through Christ, but continue to struggle with Sin. I

570
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:30.719
don't like that already, not yet, only because it leads

571
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:33.840
to some confusion. What I like to describe everything, you know,

572
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:37.280
where I like to position on practice? Right, I think,

573
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:41.280
to me, there's the answer, but Ai, I mean, if

574
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.480
I get into it, Ai, with enough discussion about this,

575
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.079
it will kind of get there. But it uses the

576
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:54.360
language of most of Christianity. But continue this view ongoing

577
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:59.239
battle with Sin Paul's So there's the sactification as a process. Now,

578
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.599
in this they would talk about the ongoing battle with Sin.

579
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:06.400
Paul's writings such as Roman seven acknowledges an ongoing struggle

580
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.960
with Sin even after conversion. His depiction of the inner

581
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:13.079
conflict where believers desire to do good but are often

582
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:16.199
caught in sin. Is often used to explain why sin

583
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:20.760
persists in the Christian life. That doesn't explain anything, right,

584
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:26.079
Roman seven to me speaks of a reality. It doesn't

585
00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:28.480
explain it because Christians still don't know what to do

586
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:33.280
with it. Christians, because if the reality is well Christians

587
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:37.679
are going to continue to struggle with sin. Who's going

588
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.920
to struggle with sin? Then all Christians? That would include

589
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:53.840
whom pastors, Sunday school teachers, elders, deacons, secretaries, piano players,

590
00:37:54.760 --> 00:38:01.360
anyone and everyone in the church. Yeah, person saved the

591
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.679
day or person serve fifty years. And so if we're

592
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:05.719
going to continue to struggle with sin, what should the

593
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:10.679
church then expect sin? But the church can't. The church

594
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.400
just will not accept that, will it. It does not

595
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:18.400
accept it. And so so I look, it just drives

596
00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:21.599
me crazy. The reality is sin and Christianity has shown

597
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:25.400
a history of not. So that's the progressive revel progressive

598
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:28.119
sanctification view. I don't know, I don't know what you

599
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:33.199
do with that, right, How would you what would you

600
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:36.280
say about the progressive sanctification? It doesn't really explain it, right,

601
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:39.719
It just what is it? More acknowledging people will see

602
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.320
it as a progression in holiness. I just see it

603
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:46.519
as a continuation of sin. That's what I say. And

604
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:50.119
even and even how do you judge progressive? How do

605
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:54.320
you judge it? Right? I can stop in external behavior,

606
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:59.639
but it may not change anything internally. And and here's

607
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:03.119
the issue. If sin still remains. Come on, what's the

608
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:08.960
big question? If sin still remains, where is it coming from?

609
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:11.280
That's what I want you to get to. Where is

610
00:39:11.320 --> 00:39:14.320
it coming from? Because almost inevitably all Christians say, what's

611
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:18.639
changed the inside? Well, then where's it coming from? And

612
00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:22.199
remember the very reform people who teach sanctification as a

613
00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:26.119
process or it's progressive, will be the very ones who

614
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.079
said that we can now keep the law. Well, if

615
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.519
I can keep the law, then why is it progressive?

616
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.960
It makes no sense? All right? So that's number one.

617
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:45.559
Number two, the doctrine of original sin. All right. Now,

618
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.440
when we talk about the doctrine of original sin, who's

619
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:54.960
the name we're gonna put to this. Augustine? All right,

620
00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:00.000
the Augustinian influence? All right, Saint Augustine or someone say

621
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:04.159
Saint Augustine. Saint Augustine's doctrine of original sin has had

622
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.719
a lasting impact on how Christianity understands the human condition.

623
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.360
Augustine taught that all humans are born with a sinful nature,

624
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:19.719
inherited from Adam. Even after salvation, are you ready for this?

625
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:32.320
Christians retain the fallen nature, making sin an ever present reality. Now,

626
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:37.320
if we still retain a sinful nature, immediately, what concept

627
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.440
can we throw out? If I still maintain a sinful nature,

628
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:48.599
what can then I not do? I cannot keep the law?

629
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.519
Now this is weird because many of the reform people

630
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:57.559
who would believe in original sin right the Augustinian view,

631
00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:59.480
are some of the same people who say that you

632
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:02.360
can now keep the law. You can't keep the law

633
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:04.480
if you have a sinful nature. Why can you not

634
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:13.679
keep the law? If you have a sinful nature? Right,

635
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:17.280
the nature itself would mean internally you would never be

636
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:19.559
able to keep the law internally, and the law demands

637
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:24.199
perfection externally internally, so even if you could get the

638
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:28.360
external to work, but the external is motivated by the internal.

639
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.639
So then you just you're just lost. I mean, you're

640
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.039
just in no way. Now, if you believe Christians maintain

641
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:37.760
a sinful nature, if you truly believe that, then what

642
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:40.719
should you just one thousand percent expect in the church.

643
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.440
You should not only expect sin, you should expect an

644
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:48.239
abundance of sin, right, I mean, come on, and if

645
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:52.480
we still have a sinful nature, you know what's common

646
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:56.320
in the reform world and the lordship world. There are

647
00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:01.000
no coernal Christians. That's like a foundational it's upon lordship.

648
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.480
Well wait a minute, if I have a sinful nature

649
00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:10.920
by nature, then I would be even Sometimes when you

650
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:12.920
listen to lordship people who try to talk a big

651
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:17.000
game that they were reformed, they're not reformed. They left

652
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.199
the Reformation so far behind. You know what, they're reformed.

653
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.320
They're the reformed version of the Council of Trent, which

654
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:27.199
was sometimes calmed the counter Reformation. Lordship is the counter

655
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:31.840
Reformation to the Reformation. It's not Chris, it's not. It's Catholicism.

656
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:36.079
I say it again. They're Catholics. They just don't want

657
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:38.800
to go to the Catholic Church. That's why I've said

658
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.320
so many times that look, if we should just all

659
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:46.159
go back to Catholicism, there's no point Luther lost. Luther

660
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:48.719
you were a failure, You were an idiot to fight

661
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.239
against the Catholic Church. It could not be defeated, and

662
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:54.239
it won. I guess it just changed its name from

663
00:42:54.360 --> 00:43:01.360
what Catholic church to Reformed church, but follicism just remained

664
00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:03.000
right there. And I know when I say that people

665
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:06.559
lose their mind. But their view is so Catholic it's

666
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.599
not even funny. All right. So if we have a

667
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:15.840
sinful nature, then what can we not do? We cannot

668
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:18.360
keep the law. We cannot keep the law, all right?

669
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:23.119
Everybody got that right? And so listen, how Christians retain

670
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:28.199
the fallen nature? Making sin an ever present reality? What

671
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:33.239
is an ever present reality in your life? Sin? What

672
00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:36.039
is an ever present reality in your life? Sin? This

673
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:40.480
persistence of sin is not seen as abnormal, but as

674
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:44.280
a part of human existence until glorification. Oh, man, lordship,

675
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:46.960
people would lose their mind if I read that. Are

676
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:50.400
you ready to let me read that again? The persistence

677
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:56.320
of sin is not seen as abnormal. The persistence of

678
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.679
sin is not seen as abnormal, but as a part

679
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:06.360
of human existence until when glorification. Now, what's the danger

680
00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:12.679
of this? Yeah, this is gonna be very hard. It's

681
00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:14.639
gonna be very hard to tell me. Then you gotta

682
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:16.760
fight against that sin and that sin, because what could

683
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:21.960
be my argument. I'm gonna send any either way. You

684
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.239
can't really blame someone for thinking that, right, I mean,

685
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:28.360
what is your argument but your argument, but a Christian

686
00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:31.679
will stop sitting. No, a Christian's not gonna stop sinning,

687
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.840
but a Christian will do better. And now that becomes

688
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:38.440
a subjective measurement, right, And what do you mean by that?

689
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.719
Oh that I'm not gonna commit. I'm not gonna be

690
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:44.719
a homosexual. That's what that means. Right, Okay, I'm not

691
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.320
gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do this or that.

692
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.599
But then there's too many statistics to prove what Christians

693
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:54.159
are doing, right, I mean I could bring in statistics

694
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:58.960
all day about pastor pastors and Christian men and just pornography.

695
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:03.440
Those numbers are out really staggering, but nobody wants to

696
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.920
talk about that, right, or you have a conference to

697
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.960
deal with it. Well, the conference and almost every case

698
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:14.079
is it uses what behavioral modification techniques that are used

699
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:18.960
by a twelve step program? Right, admit your problem, Admit

700
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.360
you're powerless over your problem. Have an accountability partner, right

701
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:26.679
like you know, do that. That's not what Christians shouldn't

702
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:29.840
be talking that way, because it should be what you've

703
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.480
been transformed, You're a new creature in Christ. You don't

704
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.880
have to commit this sin. Just stop. You don't even

705
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:38.119
need a conference. It should just be what stop it?

706
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:43.480
And you should be like don Dundun, I can't. The

707
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:48.599
Augustinian influence would say, what when is it? When are

708
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:55.960
you gonna fix it? Glorification? Yeah, glorification? All right? Right now,

709
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:59.079
So the doctrine of original sin you have the Augustinian

710
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:01.719
influence and the august Sian influence basically is, hey, you're

711
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:04.719
a sinner and you're going to what san and your

712
00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.719
nature is still there. Now, Luther kind of comes into

713
00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:13.400
this tradition. Why does Luther come into this tradition? Why

714
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:16.519
would Luther come in flow from the tradition of the

715
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:25.719
Augustinian system. He was an Augustinian monk. Okay, So yeah,

716
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:28.800
so that's that's the historical answer. I want you to say. Okay,

717
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:32.800
he was in the from an Augustinian perspective, right, Martin

718
00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:38.239
Luther summarized this tension with a phrase that means at

719
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:44.880
the same time saint and sinner, or he would say,

720
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:50.480
at the same time justified and a sinner. All right,

721
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.599
we're gonna run out of time here, But this okay.

722
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:00.920
In this view, Christians are always sinners by nature, but

723
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:04.639
are declared righteous through the faith of Jesus Christ. So oh,

724
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:08.039
now we have two people. We have Augustine and we

725
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:10.559
have Luther, both saying that we still remain we still

726
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:15.199
have what a sinful nature? Remember how I started this hour?

727
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:18.880
I quoted from a Lutheran confession of sin, and how

728
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:24.079
did it begin? We are in bondage to sin. We're

729
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:31.559
in bondage to sin, right, Lutherans still maintain that that's

730
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:34.639
that's Lutheran theology is the only one who maintains that.

731
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:39.679
Almost inevitably, every Christian you know will argue, no, no, no,

732
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:41.360
when you become a Christian, you're a new creature. Old

733
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:43.199
pigs have passed away. They will argue that you have

734
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:45.119
a new nature, you will have a new heart, and

735
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:48.079
that you've been completely transformed. Almost every Christian you know

736
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.559
who goes to church will argue that. Yet they can't,

737
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:55.719
and they can't then explain why they continue to sin.

738
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.840
But at least we have in it good to know

739
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:02.400
that there's at least something in Christianity that is willing

740
00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:07.760
to acknowledge what we're still a sinner, and we are sinner?

741
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:15.159
What way? Practically? But then what are we? We are justified?

742
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.599
And why are we declared righteous through faith in Christ?

743
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.400
So then how would Luther describe it? The Christian life therefore,

744
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:25.800
is a continual dependence on God's grace rather than a

745
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:29.760
life of sinless victory. Did everyone hear that? Luther would

746
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:33.639
say the Christian life is a continual dependence on God's

747
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:39.960
grace rather than a life of sinless victory. Luther would

748
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.239
not say, We're going to experience what in this life

749
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:47.239
victory over sin? So this entire life is a lesson

750
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:56.639
to do what to depend on God's grace? That's radically different,

751
00:48:56.719 --> 00:49:04.360
is it not? So the issue is not, hey become better.

752
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.360
The issue is become more dependent and rely more and

753
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:10.599
more on God's grace and become more and more open

754
00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:12.840
and honest with how sinful we are. But we're not

755
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:16.719
allowed to be that way? Are we? You're not, You're

756
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:23.800
you're you're finished, You're done. There was a ministry, and

757
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:26.119
the ministry there were I mean, let's just be honest.

758
00:49:26.119 --> 00:49:28.960
They were jerks. I mean they just attacked everyone, and

759
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:31.960
they attacked everyone just it was insane, the way they

760
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.079
attack people, call people names. Everyone's a heretic, but them, Well,

761
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:40.360
the leader of that ministry, well, he's quote unquote disqualified.

762
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:44.199
He embezzled money. Okay, that's definitely not a good thing, right,

763
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.199
and then he was he got busted for a dui

764
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:51.559
and he was addicted to some kind of prescription medication.

765
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:57.519
Well guess what the ministry did with him and said

766
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:05.559
he's permanently disqualified. But Gus whoever is now currently in

767
00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:10.920
charge of said ministry, are they not the same kind

768
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:14.559
of sinner? Say? That's the thing that It's just all

769
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:19.039
we ever care about is what the external manifestation? Like,

770
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:23.119
I just I will never understand the way Christians think

771
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:27.320
about this. So let me read that again. What is

772
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:33.320
the Christian life a continual dependence on God's grace rather

773
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:38.239
than a life of sinless victory? All right, So we've

774
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:41.280
looked at sectification as a process. We've looked at the

775
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:45.320
doctrine of original sin, which gave us Augustine and Luther. Right,

776
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:49.280
all right, now we're going to move forward in church history.

777
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:54.239
Are you ready? All right? We're gonna move to John Wesley.

778
00:50:55.400 --> 00:51:02.599
This is the Wesleyan holiness. Movement, Wesleyan holiness movement. What

779
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:12.199
is this movement sometimes called Christian perfection? Now there's a

780
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:14.480
little this is going to get a little confusing here,

781
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:17.960
but just stay with me, all right, everybody ready? John

782
00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:21.320
Wesley in the Holiness movement, proposed that Christians could attain

783
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:29.760
a state of entire sanctification or Christian perfection, where sin

784
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:35.280
is overcome in this life. However, even in this view,

785
00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:40.239
perfection is understood not as sinless perfection, but as perfection

786
00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:45.880
and love. So even in this movement they have to

787
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:55.400
modify it. Which what does that tell you that even

788
00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:58.519
in this movement that thinks that you can you'll be

789
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.440
an overcomer and you can have victory, which I really

790
00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:05.840
would argue this movement has influenced much of Christianity more

791
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:09.760
than the Augustinian or Lutheran view, which once again tells

792
00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:11.719
me what I know. When I say it, people get

793
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:14.639
ticked off at me. Luther was a failure. The entire

794
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:18.280
Reformation was a failure. It was a complete, abysmal failure.

795
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:23.639
Wesleyanism and Holiness movement has influenced Christianity because what is

796
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:28.880
the standard perspective on most Christians? We can overcome, we

797
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:32.880
are victory. We are victorious in Christ. We are overcomers,

798
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:35.320
we're more than conquerors. I can do all things through

799
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:39.440
Christ Jesus, who strengthens me. I can do it right.

800
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:43.360
That's the Christian mantra. But even in this movement that started,

801
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:45.559
it was like, well, well now let's be careful. Now,

802
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:51.159
we can't actually get to true perfection. Isn't that a

803
00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:58.039
cop out? Now? That's just what is that? Well? Yeah,

804
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:01.920
well possibly that's a that's a possible way of trying

805
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:04.719
to work around it. Critics often see this as two

806
00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:09.239
idealistic as. Most Christians never reach this state. So even

807
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:11.559
critics say, hey, nobody ever reaches this state. And I've

808
00:53:11.599 --> 00:53:14.519
known people who I worked with, people who went to

809
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:17.559
these kinds of churches. I worked with them, and so

810
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:20.000
whenever I would call them out on something like well

811
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.159
you know it may be possible, but you know I

812
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:26.199
haven't gotten there yet. Well how do you get there?

813
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:29.920
But even if they get there, there's still not to

814
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:32.960
true perfection. Well guess what if you if you can't

815
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:36.480
get to true perfection, whatever victory you're claiming, you're still

816
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:44.079
what and perpetual sin? Does everyone understand that any lack

817
00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:48.920
of perfection. No matter how much your behavior has changed,

818
00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:53.159
they still say. Okay, So I got to take a

819
00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:56.239
step back here, just because people will get misinterpret what

820
00:53:56.280 --> 00:54:02.519
I'm saying. Are there not life and human benefits and

821
00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:06.960
societal benefits from being as good as we can be? Yes,

822
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:10.880
we can all agree, right from a human perspective, don't

823
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:14.119
do this, don't do this, don't do this. There's good things.

824
00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:17.480
Now this becomes a little problematic though. Within christiandom right,

825
00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:19.679
but let's just go agree with that. But what I'm

826
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.599
looking at from a theological perspective, no matter how good

827
00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:27.159
I can be, I'm still white and sin But then

828
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:30.800
this becomes really think about it now, Oh, nobody's gonna

829
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:36.400
like this question if we go with to me, the

830
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.360
only view that makes sense is Augustinian and view right

831
00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:42.480
and even Luther, that I still have a sinful nature.

832
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:51.159
If I still have a sinful nature? Oh are you

833
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:56.039
ready for this? Everybody? You're not gonna like this. Can

834
00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:09.679
I control which sin I commit? Can I control which

835
00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:19.679
sins I commit? This becomes philosophically problematic, right, because if

836
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:22.159
I can control with sins I commit, then that means

837
00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:35.199
I'm in control of the sin nature yeah, how much. See,

838
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:37.639
this is where it becomes problem. How much control do

839
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:41.000
I have over the nature? Does the nature drive the

840
00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:43.920
engine or drive the ship? Or do I drive the ship?

841
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:46.280
If I drive the ship, then I could just drive

842
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:49.960
it away from what I could drive it away from

843
00:55:49.960 --> 00:56:03.280
what all sin I know. I'm saying, if I could

844
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:07.440
drive it, then I would be in control. If I'm

845
00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:11.239
not in control, then can I control which sins I commit?

846
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:21.679
This is This is a philosophical riddle. Does everybody understand, right,

847
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:24.440
because on one hand, you don't want to say I can't.

848
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:26.440
You don't want to say it right. You don't want

849
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:28.360
to say, well, you can't control which sins you commit,

850
00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:32.320
because then that would sound like what Well, so immediately

851
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:34.199
you're going to be accused of being an hynomian, is

852
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:36.679
what you're going to be accused of. But you basically

853
00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:38.599
are going to be like, well, wait a minute, you're saying,

854
00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:42.760
then you don't control anything. Well, I'm just saying if

855
00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:46.039
we have a sinful nature, this becomes a major problem.

856
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:50.079
Right if you acknowledge that. On one hand, it makes

857
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.039
sense to say we still have a sinful nature? Why

858
00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:57.360
because we sin all the time? Right, and so can

859
00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:02.519
I stop sinning all the time. No, so MENI I

860
00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:05.639
don't have control? Right, Well, now the minute I acknowledge

861
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:10.039
I don't have control, do you see what follows? If

862
00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:13.760
I don't have control, then the sin nature has control?

863
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.639
So then can I control with sins? I commit? Do

864
00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:21.119
you see the inevitable logical situation following? And nobody wants

865
00:57:21.199 --> 00:57:23.840
to say that, right, I don't want to go Stephen

866
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:25.440
knows doesn't want to look at Sarah, Well, you can't

867
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:27.440
control with sins you commit, and she's like, well, good

868
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:29.440
because I'm gonna kill you in a couple of hours, right,

869
00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:31.559
and I just won't be able to control it. Now,

870
00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:35.079
nobody wants to acknowledge. Everybody's like, that's just ridiculous. No,

871
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:38.000
you can you have control because that and that gets

872
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:40.320
to a more free will view, right, but then it

873
00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:42.559
can my will be free if I have a sinful

874
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:47.119
nature then and if I have free will, then now

875
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:49.480
you're back to the Pelagian view. I should be able

876
00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:53.440
to do what be perfect even without conversion. Oh man,

877
00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:58.320
do you see the inevitable difficulty this involves. There's there's

878
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:00.480
no this is no way to get out out of this,

879
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:03.960
all right, And we'll have to stop there. We'll have

880
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.159
to stop there because we're ten fifty eight. All right,

881
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:10.280
So what are the So let's go through this. What

882
00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:14.079
is the reality in the Christian life? It said everyone

883
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:17.960
knows that can I get to perfection? Meaning something is

884
00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:21.920
keeping me from it? All right? So Christians have come

885
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.079
up with theories and how to deal with it, right,

886
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:26.880
and so we've looked at least the one view in

887
00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:30.000
the book Six Secrets of the Christian Life, and they

888
00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:32.000
make the argument that the problem is that the body

889
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:35.599
is dead. Everything is changed on the inside, but the

890
00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:37.960
body can't respond to the inside, so the body needs

891
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:40.000
a resurrection. But then they can't really tell me how

892
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:41.960
to get the resurrection other than I guess I just

893
00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:43.840
got to read my Bible, and I guess then that will.

894
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:47.880
I don't know, they can't. It just seems that's leading

895
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:49.400
me to madness. But I'm going to make it through

896
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:51.639
the entire book. I may be drinking by the end

897
00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:52.880
of it, but I'm going to make it through the

898
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.880
entire book. So that got me thinking, all right, then

899
00:58:55.880 --> 00:58:57.880
how do we look at this? So now we've took

900
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:01.400
we've taken a journey the Christian life and what have

901
00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:05.159
we discovered, Well, we have the sanctification is a process.

902
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:09.800
Does that really help us? Not really, right, because it

903
00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:12.840
leads us with the inevitable question of what, according to

904
00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:15.480
this view, the Holy Spirit's the one making me more holy? Well,

905
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:17.599
if the Holy Spirit's making me more holy, why wouldn't

906
00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:22.079
he just make me holy? And if the Holy Spirit's

907
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:23.920
the one doing it, then what is stopping the Holy

908
00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:27.280
Spirit from accomplishing it? You only got a couple of

909
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.920
couple of options, right, God doesn't then want me holy?

910
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:36.159
Or I'm stopping the Holy Spirit, Which then it just

911
00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:38.280
gets more confusing because why when the Holy Spirit change

912
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:39.960
my want to to want to? All right? All right?

913
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:42.880
So that one doesn't really answer anything. The second one

914
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.400
was the idea of original sin. We like this one

915
00:59:45.440 --> 00:59:48.119
much better, right? Why do we like this one much better?

916
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:55.119
Because it explains the reality we still have a sin nature. Therefore,

917
00:59:55.159 --> 00:59:58.280
we are still going to sin, and we're gonna do

918
00:59:58.360 --> 01:00:04.000
so all the way till glorification. All right. Third is

919
01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:08.599
the Wesleyan or Holiness movement, and this says that we

920
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:12.639
can reach some state of entire sanctification, but even when

921
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:15.920
we reach an entire state of sanctification, we're we still

922
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:20.840
all right, not truly perfect, meaning even in a situation

923
01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:25.199
that teaches some type of entire perfection, we still sin

924
01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:28.800
and that means then we're in a perpetual state of sin,

925
01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:31.559
which then all of this leads us to some of

926
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:36.159
those additional questions that we put forth right, So we

927
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:39.679
have to go through the Catholic view, the legalistic and

928
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:44.559
moralistic view, the grace centered approach, the mysticism, a spirituality approach,

929
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:49.599
a resolution found in eschatology, a pastoral and practical approach,

930
01:00:49.719 --> 01:00:52.199
and then we'll look at a conclusion. Then what we

931
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:53.880
need to do is then we're going to trace church

932
01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:57.199
history and how Christians relate to the law, because this

933
01:00:57.320 --> 01:00:59.760
is very much related to it, right because you've got

934
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:02.800
who believe that we can keep the law, which is

935
01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:08.639
very common in the evangelical reformed world and which I

936
01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:11.519
don't understand how any reasonable person can preach that I

937
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:14.599
can keep the law. And the minute you say I can't,

938
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:17.920
then you go back to the inevitable reality that we're

939
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:20.719
talking about right here, something is keeping me from it,

940
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.840
What is keeping me from it, and whatever is keeping

941
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:29.559
me from it has to be explained. What can we

942
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:38.719
all agree upon. If God wants me holy in this life,

943
01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:48.719
we should already be there. So the issue then is

944
01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:54.480
God's law was never intended to be something that he

945
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:59.000
wants me to accomplish in this life, because if he did,

946
01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:02.800
he would make me a to keep it. So then

947
01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:07.719
the law is simply designed to do what point out

948
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:14.440
that I can never be it? Now? You know what?

949
01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:17.280
Guess what if you know anyone who's lordship, just what

950
01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:23.199
they would immediately say to you, since I don't know, meanism,

951
01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:26.639
because that's the only word they have to do, or

952
01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:37.000
that's what reality. Every one in this room claims to

953
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:40.840
be a Christian? Is anyone here reach perfection? Has anyone

954
01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:45.639
been holy? Why not? Well? Can we not a logically

955
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:54.440
say God has not made me holy? Nobody wants to

956
01:02:54.440 --> 01:02:57.199
say that, right nobody? Why does no one want to

957
01:02:57.199 --> 01:03:03.880
say that because that sounds like we're blaming God? But

958
01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.000
can we not agree? God could do what in about

959
01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:11.039
two seconds? He could give me a new heart, a

960
01:03:11.119 --> 01:03:15.079
new nature, and remove any desire for sin, and I

961
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:18.320
could just be perfect, And then the world driving past

962
01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:21.679
churches would be like, hey, kids, those are the perfect people.

963
01:03:23.199 --> 01:03:25.280
Those people are better than all of us but do

964
01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:28.719
they drive by churches saying that they drive by self righteous,

965
01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:35.960
stinking hypocrites? Well, or just know us? All right? I mean,

966
01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:39.679
have you ever worked with Christians. I've worked with plenty

967
01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:43.880
of Christians. They've worked with me. Well, guess what we've

968
01:03:43.880 --> 01:03:51.000
seen in each other and perfection. Some of them are

969
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.239
better at trying to hide it, but almost inevitably you

970
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:58.440
find out that what they're not what they appeared to be. Well,

971
01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:03.800
you know what, we should expect them to be sinners.

972
01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:06.400
And I know it's hard for us to say that.

973
01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:09.159
All Right, we'll stop there, We'll see how much further

974
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:11.320
we can get into this, and we're going to try

975
01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:13.519
to come up with some answers. All right, We're gonna

976
01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:16.760
that Romans eight passage is where every everyone seems to

977
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:18.559
go to that Romans eight ten, and I think that

978
01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:22.920
that's they're doing some misinterpretation of Romans eight ten. That's insane.

979
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:25.400
So at some point we're gonna walk through Romans eight

980
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:27.719
and we're gonna just look at the entire chapter from

981
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:31.400
a law gospel perspective, because I think that's the only

982
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:34.039
perspective that makes any sense. I think the I think

983
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:37.239
Lutheran theology if they got anything right, they got this right. Okay,

984
01:04:37.559 --> 01:04:39.280
So all right this prayer, Lord God, we come before

985
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:42.760
you this morning. Lord, we all everyone in this room.

986
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:46.280
We confess that we are sinners, we have been, we

987
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:49.440
still are, and we will be. Our only hope is

988
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:51.639
not in us trying to be better, but it's in

989
01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:54.599
the perfection of your son, Jesus Christ. That's where our

990
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:57.320
hope is, and that's where we rest. And it's in

991
01:04:57.400 --> 01:05:04.840
his name we pray. And God's people said