Nov. 10, 2024

Celebrity Pastors and Church Membership

Celebrity Pastors and Church Membership

Some important issues to consider

Spreaker podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
PocketCasts podcast player badge
Amazon Music podcast player badge
Overcast podcast player badge
Audible podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
iHeartRadio podcast player badge
Castbox podcast player badge
Podchaser podcast player badge
TuneIn podcast player badge
Deezer podcast player badge
Pandora podcast player badge
RadioPublic podcast player badge
Podcast Addict podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
YouTube podcast player badge
Fountain podcast player badge
PlayerFM podcast player badge
Goodpods podcast player badge
Podverse podcast player badge
Podyssey podcast player badge
Breaker podcast player badge
Podurama podcast player badge
Audacy podcast player badge
JioSaavn podcast player badge
Spreaker podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon iHeartRadio podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon TuneIn podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon RadioPublic podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon Breaker podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon

Some important issues to consider

WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.960
Looking at our world from a theological perspective.

2
00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:10.279
This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central.

3
00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:17.920
Well and our last broadcast, we discovered the secret of Secrets.

4
00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:22.199
We have discovered why Christians have been sinning for two

5
00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:26.120
thousand years plus. We have figured it all out because

6
00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:29.359
of a YouTube video. We discovered that the reason pastors

7
00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:32.560
fall into sin, and logically it would be implied, then

8
00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:35.679
why you fall into sin, why we all fall into sin,

9
00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:38.840
is because if our doctrine is.

10
00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:41.840
Wrong, then our morals will be wrong.

11
00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:45.280
Right doctrine fixes your morals, you'll just never sin again,

12
00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:47.799
you'll stop sinning. I guess you will basically be perfect.

13
00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.520
But if your doctrine is not correct, then you're going

14
00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:52.960
to sin and sin and sin and sin. Now I

15
00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:56.039
don't know exactly who gets to determine whose doctrine is

16
00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.200
right or whose doctrine is wrong, And I don't really

17
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.479
quite understand and how after two thousand years of church

18
00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:08.200
history we have seen sin, scandal and failure. Presbyterians, Baptists,

19
00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:14.799
Church of Christ, Charismatics, non Charismatics, you name it, free will,

20
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:19.840
Baptist Reform Baptists. You just name the denomination, you name

21
00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.519
the group, and there's been sin scandal and failure.

22
00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:24.599
So I still don't know which group.

23
00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.879
Has the right doctrine that basically prevents anyone from falling

24
00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:30.719
into sin. I don't know, but according to the YouTube

25
00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.760
video in our last broadcast, we discovered and all you

26
00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.200
have to do is have the right doctrine, and ladies

27
00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:41.120
and gentlemen, everything is fixed.

28
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:45.239
That was crazy to hear. I'm still processing. But we

29
00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:48.200
need to move the conversation forward.

30
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:50.560
Right because not only did we discover in the last

31
00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:54.879
broadcast that if your doctrine is wrong, you're gonna basically

32
00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:58.319
fall into sin, but if your doctrine is wrong about

33
00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:01.920
church membership, well that's one of the doctrines you have

34
00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:04.400
to have right or you will fall and descend. So

35
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:06.959
we're going to take that and we're going to well

36
00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.800
discuss it and move it forward a little bit, and

37
00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:13.560
hopefully you'll find it to be interesting, all right, that's hopefully.

38
00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:15.439
I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that it will be.

39
00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.039
That is my hope that not only will it be interesting,

40
00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:24.319
it'll be somewhat beneficial. And of course, unfortunately it's going

41
00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.080
to be somewhat controversial because while we're going to get

42
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.280
into something that's going to tick off a lot of

43
00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.800
people within the Christian world because even though it's considered

44
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:36.400
the norm, I think it's ridiculous, and we're going to

45
00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:38.000
talk about it. But before we do that, let me

46
00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.080
go ahead. And I know I've already jumped right in.

47
00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:40.759
I'm ready to.

48
00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:42.960
Go, but let me just take a breath, take a minute,

49
00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:47.039
and say good evening everyone. It is Saturday, November ninth,

50
00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.000
twenty twenty four. It is currently nine thirty nine pm

51
00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:53.919
Central Time, and I am coming to you live from

52
00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:58.719
the Theology Central Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas.

53
00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:00.439
Now I know what I'm supposed to be you doing.

54
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:06.960
It's Saturday evening, right, That means tomorrow morning, I'll get dressed,

55
00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.599
get in a car, drive what about twenty miles about

56
00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:14.599
fifteen to twenty minutes south of this very studio, and

57
00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.560
stand behind a pulpit, and I'm supposed to be We

58
00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:19.599
never know how things are actually going to work, even

59
00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.400
at church. I don't ever really know how things are

60
00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.199
going to work. I'll be starting and really getting into

61
00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:26.400
Isaiah chapter forty. Well, we'll kind of go back to

62
00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:28.719
chapter thirty nine and the move towards forty we'll do

63
00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:30.719
a lot of review get back to our series on

64
00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:34.159
Isaiah forty through fifty five, and I'm hoping if I

65
00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:38.159
can keep myself to it. The first hour is supposed

66
00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:41.639
to be Romans chapter four, verse sixteen. It's supposed to be, but.

67
00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:43.919
We will see. I don't know.

68
00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.879
Reality is I probably should just dedicate both hours to Isaiah,

69
00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:50.159
is what I probably should do, or both hours to

70
00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:52.759
Romans chapter four, because in either case.

71
00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:53.599
It's going to be a mess.

72
00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:56.960
So I don't know. Last week we didn't have anything.

73
00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.879
The week before, a large number of people were out,

74
00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:03.599
so really you're going to have people walking in Sunday

75
00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.319
that are basically three weeks behind. It's going to be

76
00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:08.120
I don't know what to do, so I've got to

77
00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:10.520
make some determination. So that's what I really should be doing.

78
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.159
I should be focusing on that. But how can I

79
00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.720
just ignore the great secret that we discovered that, Hey,

80
00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:20.279
ladies and gentlemen, the way to stop sinning is just

81
00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:22.800
get your doctrine right and then you'll stop sinning. Which

82
00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.600
is kind of ironic that someone would say that, because

83
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.560
that demonstrates a completely wrong doctrine about.

84
00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:29.279
The nature of sin.

85
00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:32.000
That sin is a part of our nature, and right

86
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:34.480
doctrine doesn't fix my nature. I mean, the whole thing

87
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.480
is just maddening. But let me try to put it

88
00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.279
all together and help you all. Right now, we know,

89
00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.000
I believe it was the month of October, a big

90
00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:50.040
scandal broke right Steve Lawson, a very famous pastor associated

91
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:55.000
with Liganaire ministries, associated with Master Seminary. You know, Steve Lawson,

92
00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.120
who has preached at conferences all over the country, very

93
00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:01.920
much associated with lordships. That it was found out that

94
00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:04.839
he was engaged in inappropriate relationship with a younger woman.

95
00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:06.920
There was a lot of details that we did not know,

96
00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.279
and there was a lot of controversy, and I made

97
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:11.959
the decision right from the start. I don't really care

98
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.639
to get into the you know, the gossip, the rumors,

99
00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.800
the scandal, the dirt, and I'm not and everybody else

100
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:21.360
can do that. So I said, okay, I'm not going

101
00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:23.519
to name the pastor. I'm not even going to name him.

102
00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.560
I'm going to take this subject. A man fell into sin. Well, congratulations,

103
00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:31.439
we all sin So he fell into sin. Well, everyone

104
00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.839
that he was preaching to was already in sin and

105
00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:37.160
he's already been in sid. So I said, Christianity seems

106
00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.959
incapable of actually dealing with sin in a meaningful way.

107
00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.439
So we started a very lengthy conversation about sin, and

108
00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.000
it led to our current series that we've been doing

109
00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.759
on the Six Secrets of the Christian Life and how

110
00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:52.160
insane that book is, and we've just been we've just

111
00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.639
been talking about it from all kinds of different perspectives,

112
00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:56.959
law and gospel, and I thought that was.

113
00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:58.800
A pretty you know, a pretty good way to deal

114
00:05:58.800 --> 00:05:58.959
with that.

115
00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:01.079
I wouldn't have to mention this name, and so I've

116
00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.759
kind of avoided the name until today. And today I

117
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.240
didn't really mention the name. Well, the video that I

118
00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.800
played mentioned the name, and their whole thing was, hey,

119
00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.759
ladies and gentlemen, Steve Lowson sinned. Nobody could figure out

120
00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:14.519
why he sinned.

121
00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:15.240
What happened.

122
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.439
Well, now we know, because anytime a pastor falls into sin,

123
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:20.680
all you have to do is find the wrong doctrine,

124
00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:22.800
and the wrong doctrine is what led to the sin.

125
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.480
And it's like just really crazy.

126
00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.959
So we discussed it and we talked about it, and

127
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:32.800
then we found out that the wrong doctrine, according to

128
00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.600
the video we saw the wrong doctrine that led Steve

129
00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:39.600
Lowson to fall into sind the reason that got his

130
00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:44.000
mind thinking about a younger woman was because his doctrine

131
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.639
about church was completely messed up. What do we mean

132
00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:51.639
by that, Well, according to the video, Steve, Now this

133
00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:54.639
is according to their claim. Now the claim is showing

134
00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:57.360
up all over the place, all right, So this the

135
00:06:57.399 --> 00:06:59.560
one video. In fact, I'm gonna be playing audio from

136
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.199
a second video. This is going all over the place.

137
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:04.680
There's articles on the internet about this. I don't know

138
00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:09.040
if we have any actual confirmation of how true this is.

139
00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:13.079
But according to the claims, Steve Lawson's fraudulent doctrine that

140
00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:15.959
led him to fall into sin was that he was

141
00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:20.160
not a pastor. He was not even a member of

142
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:26.480
a church. He basically was paid a paid speaker. Hey,

143
00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.399
come to Trinity, I think it's called Trinity Bible Church,

144
00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.240
and you're just going to preach Sunday after Sunday after Sunday,

145
00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.079
We're just going to pay you. You show up, you preach,

146
00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:39.000
we pay you, you leave. So he's not the pastor,

147
00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:39.560
he's not.

148
00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:40.879
Even a member of the church.

149
00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.439
So he worked with Ligonary Mint Ministries. He worked with

150
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:51.199
MacArthur's the seminary. He was basically the weekly speaker at

151
00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.560
this church, but he was not even a church member anywhere,

152
00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:56.959
wasn't even a pastor. And this raises all kinds of

153
00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.639
questions about the whole you know, scandal, Like, well, so

154
00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:03.600
then what do you do? Do you hold him to

155
00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:06.079
a standard of a pastor if he's not really a pastor.

156
00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:09.319
He's just a preacher, he's just a speaker, he's not

157
00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.000
a member of a church. So can you exercise church discipline?

158
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.600
He's not even a member of a church. What can

159
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.560
you actually do? How do we even approach this? So

160
00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:22.199
we talked about it in the crazy thing that well,

161
00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.600
just because you have right doctrine about church and even

162
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.319
if you're a member of a church, doesn't stop people

163
00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.639
from sinning. So I mean that already kind of disproves

164
00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:33.919
the whole argument anyway. But a second video picks up

165
00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.399
this report about Steve Lawson not being a member of

166
00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:39.440
a church. Again, I don't know what. I don't really

167
00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:41.360
care to It's not even about Steve Lawson. Let me,

168
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.360
I want to make sure everyone understands my last broadcast

169
00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:46.559
was not about Steve Lawson. It was about this crazy

170
00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.279
idea that the reason someone falls unto SND is because

171
00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.320
their doctrine is wrong, because wrong doctrine leads to sin

172
00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:55.440
and right doctrine leads to good, you know, good morality.

173
00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.559
That whole fraudulent idea, that's what it was about. But

174
00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:01.519
we had to talk about Steve Lawson because that was

175
00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:07.159
the context in which that concept was being discussed. Once again,

176
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.240
what we're getting ready to talk about surrounds the Steve

177
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.600
Lawson controversy, but it's not really about Steve Lawson. What

178
00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:16.279
we're going to talk about here you're going to hear

179
00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.320
in just a second, is this clip is going to

180
00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.759
take to Steve Lawson controversy and talk about a broader

181
00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.440
phenomenon in the evangelical world. And I have been yelling

182
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.840
and screaming about this phenomenon in the evangelical world, but

183
00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:34.759
in a way different way because everyone seems to condemn it,

184
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.320
but then they are support the very industry that I

185
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.399
think props it up and promotes it.

186
00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:42.399
So I am going to use this.

187
00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:46.080
To go after the entire industry that I think is problematic.

188
00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:48.840
So we're going to go through this. Hopefully it's going

189
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:49.679
to be beneficial.

190
00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.159
Hopefully this will move the conversation forward a little bit.

191
00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:54.679
In some ways, I just kind of want to get

192
00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:58.159
this out, just kind of put these concepts out there,

193
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.279
and then you know, if we to return to them again,

194
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.200
say Monday, we can, and we will see, because tomorrow

195
00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:06.600
my focus needs to be on something else. And what

196
00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.639
I've learned is if you have one, if you have

197
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.080
something already on your mind as a pastor, you've been

198
00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.720
thinking about it and thinking about it, it's best to

199
00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:18.120
just go to church and say, hey, this is what

200
00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.799
we're going to talk about, instead of trying to preach

201
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.960
your sermon, because inevitably, whatever you're thinking about will just

202
00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.039
kind of show up in your sermon, whether it's really

203
00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.759
connected or not. And so a lot of times when

204
00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.519
I'm reviewing sermons, I will say, clearly, this guy had

205
00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:33.919
something else on his mind even though he was supposed

206
00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:36.440
to be preaching on this today, because this was the

207
00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.080
text he read. He kind of started and then immediately

208
00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:40.000
he's all distracted.

209
00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:41.200
That's what happens.

210
00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:43.600
So I like to prefer to just get rid of

211
00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.480
it right, let it out, and then when I get

212
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.720
to church, I can focus on Isaiah forty or Our Romans,

213
00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.600
chapter four, verse sixteen that's the plan, all right, So

214
00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:53.840
are you ready to do this?

215
00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:55.159
Here we go.

216
00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.679
Now, the volume here is very typically the volumes are

217
00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:01.879
very well. Sermons on sermons two point oh tend to

218
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.720
be recorded at a low volume. I think YouTube videos

219
00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:06.480
tend to be much louder.

220
00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:08.559
Not always, but I think.

221
00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:10.799
Most of the time. So this one is relatively loud.

222
00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:12.960
So it may be too loud at the beginning, and

223
00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.919
I'll try to pull the volume back after I look

224
00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:18.120
at my meters and see where it is. So just

225
00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.039
I don't want to blow your ear drums out because

226
00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:20.799
he comes in talking.

227
00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:21.600
In fact, I'm going.

228
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.200
To pull the volume down, then I'll increase it. That

229
00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.600
makes more sense, doesn't it. All right, here we.

230
00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.159
Go, Hello, and thank you for watching this video shocking

231
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.559
new revelations about Steve Lawson, and we're going to be

232
00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.720
talking about the problems of celebrity pastors.

233
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.279
This is a real issue.

234
00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:45.399
And before somebody comments, because yes, things are getting worse

235
00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.399
in the Steve Lawson situation, but before somebody watches ten

236
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:53.159
seconds of the video and is ready to comment, oh well,

237
00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.120
I don't think you should be talking about his personal

238
00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:56.759
life and whatever in the details.

239
00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:58.919
That's not what we're going to be doing.

240
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.480
So, Yes, things are getting worse in the story, but

241
00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:04.960
it's not what you think.

242
00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:06.480
So here's the headline.

243
00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:12.440
Okay, so shocking new details. Shocking new details. Again.

244
00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.200
I'm not here to talk about the Steve Lowson issue.

245
00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:21.879
But you notice he talked about celebrity pastors. Celebrity pastors.

246
00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:23.399
I think I think he mentioned it there.

247
00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:24.000
I hope he did.

248
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:25.799
I know it's in his title. I'm gonna play that again.

249
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.919
Make sure he mentioned it. If he didn't, I kind

250
00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.639
of gave I kind of gave it away. So I'm

251
00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:32.840
already thinking where to go. Let me play that again.

252
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.399
I hope he mentioned celebrity pastors or I just messed

253
00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:36.000
this all up.

254
00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:37.440
All right, let's listen to that again.

255
00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.759
Hello, and thank you for watching this video. Shocking new

256
00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.960
revelations about Steve Lawson, and we're going to be talking

257
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.840
about the problems of celebrity pastors.

258
00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.639
Okay, good, he mentioned it there. I wasn't jumping ahead

259
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:56.200
the problem of celebrity pastors.

260
00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:57.519
So I'm gonna make this very clear.

261
00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:01.360
All right, whatever he says here about Steve Lawson's secondary

262
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.840
it's not even the issue. The issue is the concept

263
00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:09.799
of celebrity pastors, and that's a common thing that people

264
00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:12.759
gripe about, and people gripe about. People be like, I'm

265
00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:15.679
so sick and tired of these celebrity pastors. While they're

266
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:21.360
sitting there holding a MacArthur Study Bible. They're like, whoa,

267
00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:23.879
you don't like celebrity pastors. You just happen to buy

268
00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:27.000
a bible with a man's name at the forefront of

269
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.960
the cover. But you're again celebrity pastors, right, I mean,

270
00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.080
I mean, come on now, hey, hey, I can't stand

271
00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:35.679
these celebrity pastors.

272
00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:37.600
Hey what are you doing this weekend?

273
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:37.720
Oh?

274
00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.720
We're driving about one hundred miles because there's this big

275
00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.759
conference and this person is preaching. This person is preaching.

276
00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.360
Oh how much did you pay for the conference? Well,

277
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.279
I mean it's you know, one hundred dollars to get in.

278
00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:52.320
But I hate celebrity pastors. So you're going to a

279
00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.159
conference that you paid one hundred dollars to get in

280
00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:57.480
while you're carrying your MacArthur Study Bible. No, yeah, you're right,

281
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.519
you hate celebrity pastors. You just pretend that pate in

282
00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:04.559
the very industry that props them up and helps generate

283
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:09.559
and create the celebrity itself. That's my issue, all right,

284
00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.600
So does the Steve Lawson What does the Steve Lawson

285
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.720
issue have to do with celebrity pastor as well? In

286
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:17.720
some ways, Steve Lawson was kind of celebrity, right he

287
00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:20.879
preached at conference after Look, if anyone pays money to

288
00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.759
get inside a building to hear you preach, I don't

289
00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.759
care what you say you're a celebrity pastor, I don't care.

290
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:28.120
I don't care.

291
00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.159
If you're MacArthur, I don't care. If you're a RC Sproull,

292
00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:32.519
I don't care. If people pay money to get into

293
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:34.720
a building to hear you preach the word of God,

294
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.159
you are a celebrity. Because either one, you have to

295
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.879
admit that you're charging people for the preaching of the

296
00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:43.759
Word of God. So you've turned the Bible into a

297
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.960
product which you're selling. You've turned it into a commodity

298
00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.879
which you're selling. Which that seems utterly evil, that you've

299
00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:56.320
taken the word of God and you're selling, you're selling

300
00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:58.279
the preaching of it, so people have to pay money

301
00:14:58.279 --> 00:14:58.799
to hear it.

302
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:00.440
That seems majorlyroblematic.

303
00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:02.000
And if said, well, no, no, no, no, they're not

304
00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.679
paying for the preaching of God's word. Then they're paying

305
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:06.919
for the celebrities who are inside preaching.

306
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:08.080
It's one of the other.

307
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.000
They're either paying for the word or they're paying for

308
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:11.720
the celebrity.

309
00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:12.519
Which is it?

310
00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:17.000
Well, how come most pastors couldn't hold a conference and

311
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.519
have people pay money to get in because they don't

312
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.919
have the celebrity. But once you get a big enough name,

313
00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:25.840
you can charge one hundred dollars and people will pay

314
00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:28.919
money to get in to see the whole industry thing

315
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:29.799
is just broken.

316
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.360
So let's see where he takes this. What is this

317
00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:33.279
shocking news?

318
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:35.639
I'm going to back this up, put it all back

319
00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:36.879
in its full context.

320
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.639
Here we go, hello, and thank you for watching this video.

321
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:46.679
Shocking new revelations about Steve Lawson, and we're going to

322
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.960
be talking about the problems of celebrity pastors.

323
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:51.480
This is a real issue.

324
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.639
And before somebody comments, because yes, things are getting worse

325
00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:01.159
in the Steve Lawson situation, But before somebody ten seconds

326
00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:03.399
of the video and is ready to comment, oh, well,

327
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.360
I don't think you should be talking about his personal

328
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.519
life and whatever in the details. That's not what we're

329
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.720
going to be doing. So, yes, things are getting worse

330
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.679
in the story. But it's not what you think. So

331
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:21.000
here's the headline from Protestia. Steve Lawson was not a pastor.

332
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.279
He was not even the pastor of Trinity Bible Church.

333
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.039
Matter of fact, he wasn't even a member. He wasn't

334
00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:32.960
even an elder. Yeah, this is shocking and the fact

335
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.240
that Steve Lawson, no one seems to be holding him

336
00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.799
accountable because there was no accountability.

337
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:40.639
That was the situation going in.

338
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.879
He was just the guest preacher. He was the celebrity

339
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.120
guest preacher. Only he was the guest preacher every single week.

340
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.200
Okay, So this raises the question that while he's treated

341
00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.519
as a celebrity, right, I mean, he's paid money to

342
00:16:57.559 --> 00:16:59.720
come and speak, and he just is paid week after

343
00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.279
week after week after week, and people came and why

344
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.440
were they coming to the church. They were coming for

345
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.720
Steve Lawson. They were coming for the celebrity. Why did

346
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.480
many people go to MacArthur's church for the celebrity? I mean,

347
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.119
I mean, let's just be on, why did people pay

348
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.359
to go to the Shepherd's conference?

349
00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.000
Why did people go to the conferences?

350
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:15.200
Here?

351
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:15.519
R C.

352
00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.559
Sprull, you just name the person, name the conference. I mean,

353
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.759
how many times do I get the emails? I mean

354
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.240
I think I think some people started realizing and stop

355
00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:26.559
sending me the emails. I think some of the conferences

356
00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.160
realize stop sending me the emails because they do so,

357
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.880
and I bring them here, turn on the microphone and go, hey,

358
00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.839
you want to hear so and so preach. It will

359
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.400
only cost you one hundred and seventy nine dollars. And

360
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.599
that's if you sign up early. If you don't, you're

361
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.039
gonna have to pay two hundred and.

362
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:45.359
Fifty right, And I I'm not nice about it because to.

363
00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.640
Me, it's it's a crime. What are you paying for

364
00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.079
the Bible? Are you paying for the preaching of the Bible?

365
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.799
Are you paying for the celebrity? Well, and usually these

366
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.240
are conferences, the ones I go after are the very

367
00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:05.279
conservative conferences that you know the evangelical celebrity world. Oh no,

368
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:09.000
you you condemn their celebrity while you celebrate your celebrity.

369
00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.839
So just stop it, just stop it. So there is

370
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.839
a problem here. There is a problem here. Now. Now

371
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.839
it would be interesting to note I think many now

372
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:25.359
this I could be wrong here. Now I always tell

373
00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.440
people to do this, but you should do this tomorrow

374
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.200
at church. You should walk around with a clipboard and

375
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.440
I would ask people, Hey, if you if you went

376
00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:36.319
to a church and the person who preaches every Sunday,

377
00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.000
you find out that he's not actually a pastor, he's

378
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:42.279
not actually a member of the church's he's not an elder,

379
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.920
he's not a deacon. We just pay him to come

380
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.920
preach week after week after week, you know, year after

381
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:48.759
year after year.

382
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.160
Would that be a problem. I would be curious. How

383
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.359
many people do you like? I don't care.

384
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.119
As long as someone's standing up there to preach, I

385
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.359
don't really care. You know, we got to pay somebody

386
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.039
or either paying a pastor a salary or we're paying

387
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:02.279
this person to preach each week.

388
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:04.240
What difference does it make?

389
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:06.640
Is it a difference in would they They may be

390
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.440
more worried about how much it costs versus they may go, well,

391
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:11.880
we could actually possibly save money here, who knows, or

392
00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.640
we may have to pay more. It may come down

393
00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.599
to economics for them. Now, some people may care.

394
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:18.039
I don't know.

395
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.039
It would be interesting to know how many people actually care,

396
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.960
because why, I mean, if this is true, if this

397
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.319
claim is true, that he was not even a member

398
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.400
of the church. Did no one there know? Did everyone

399
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.200
just assume that he was did the leadership in the

400
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.599
church is like, hey, guys, we don't actually have a pastor.

401
00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.599
We just pay this guy to do the work. The

402
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:39.640
rest of us will do the work as a pastor.

403
00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.279
He's the guy that just comes in to preach. I mean,

404
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.799
And did no one think that this was a problem?

405
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:46.960
Did?

406
00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.640
I mean? Did no one question this?

407
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.000
And it does raise the question about church membership itself, right,

408
00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.759
So let's see what they have to say.

409
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.519
So he would ride in on his chariot, preach, get paid,

410
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.039
and then immediately leave because he just can't, you know.

411
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.279
And the story says he needed to guard his time.

412
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:14.880
And what it looks like is he just didn't want

413
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:16.079
to have to talk to people.

414
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:16.799
He didn't want to.

415
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:19.519
Have to rub shoulders with the hoy PELOI you know,

416
00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.400
he just couldn't be bothered with that. So this is bad.

417
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.759
This story actually makes me angry. And I don't get

418
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:28.960
too riled up. We talked about a lot of different

419
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:33.000
things here, but this makes me mad. And it's the

420
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.000
celebrity culture, you know, the celebrity preachers. It's like with

421
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.000
the TGC conference, Why are people going to hear celebrity pastors,

422
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.559
and there's a lot of money to be made.

423
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:49.079
So if you whoa, that's one of the first times

424
00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:50.480
I've heard someone.

425
00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.039
Else go after it.

426
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.200
Why do people go to these conferences to hear a

427
00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.359
celebrity and there's a lot of money to be made,

428
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.839
And typically, and I condemn a conference, I almost immediately

429
00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.559
get some email people defending it.

430
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:06.920
That is crap.

431
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:10.720
That my goodness, that is great to hear. That is

432
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.200
great to hear someone else's because it's it's just a business.

433
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.640
You just reach enough celebrity status and then you get

434
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.680
to go to the conference circuit and you get paid money.

435
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.880
And what are people paying for they? I mean, like

436
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:26.559
I said, well they preach better. Give me a break,

437
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.359
Just give me. I'm so sick of that. I can

438
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.680
review a million sermons from any conference and then preaching

439
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:36.240
give me so many times it's like no, it's now

440
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:40.400
they they know all of the secrets of communication, how

441
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:45.200
they communicate, how they structure their sermon, right, they know

442
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.559
all of the communication tricks.

443
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:48.720
But they're preaching is no.

444
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.920
Give me a break. It's somehow better than everyone else's,

445
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.599
so so therefore they're worth paying one hundred dollars to

446
00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:59.640
hear that stuff drives me crazy. Really, that really does

447
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.519
just that undermines like, well, that preacher doesn't nobody pays

448
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.440
to hear him, so he's not a good as good

449
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.559
a preacher as that person because that person gets paid,

450
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.960
you know, money for people. We base the quality of

451
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:17.359
preaching on how much money people pay to hear it

452
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:17.640
is that?

453
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.680
Is that the perception?

454
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.119
So maybe you know, maybe if I start charging for

455
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.200
all of my sermons, then then is that is that

456
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.720
the way to the whole thing just is mess up?

457
00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.200
But I agree, it's a business. It's an it's the

458
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:34.279
Christian conference industrial complex, and that is the heart of

459
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:39.119
the the celebrity pastor culture. And unless we go after

460
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:44.440
the conference complex industrial complex, unless you burn that system

461
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.960
to the ground, you're going to continue to promote celebrity.

462
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:49.599
I mean, what are you saying when this man people

463
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.440
pay one hundred dollars to get into a conference to

464
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:52.359
hear this man preach.

465
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.279
You are just advertising that.

466
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:58.200
This man is somehow above all of the rest of

467
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:01.039
the pastors in that town that nobody pays to hear

468
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.559
They just walk into church on Sunday. Well, pastor you're great,

469
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.160
But that guy people pay one hundred dollars to get.

470
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:07.680
In to hear him.

471
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.240
I mean, it's about money, It's the whole thing. Should

472
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.039
just it should drive me crazy. So in this particular case,

473
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:19.599
to bring it back to Lawson, he just got paid

474
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:23.039
money to show up, preach and leave, paid money, show up.

475
00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.160
He wasn't really a preacher. He was just a speaker

476
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.480
who got paid to deliver a message.

477
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:32.680
And he did it well enough that people kept coming

478
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.279
and kept coming, and they listened to him online, listen

479
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:37.079
to him here, and listened to him there, and paid

480
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.880
money and paid money and paid money and paid money

481
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:47.480
and paid money. So let's let's see what else they

482
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:48.079
have to say here.

483
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.359
You can just get some celebrity to come in and

484
00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:54.519
you hang out of your church for an hour and

485
00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:56.559
a half and preach and then he can leave. And yeah,

486
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.559
this this really burns me up. So let's read the

487
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:04.359
article again. This is from Protestia. Six weeks have passed

488
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.519
since Trinity Bible Church revealed that Steve Lawson was disqualified

489
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.440
from ministry activities for having an inappropriate relationship with a woman.

490
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:15.160
Who is not his wife.

491
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.000
And of course she was much younger and all the

492
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:20.759
rest lasted for five years. And again, even if I

493
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.359
said this in a previous video, even if details came out,

494
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:29.119
I'm not interested in covering the tabloid type details. But

495
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.799
this is a massive issue. It exposes a massive issue

496
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.599
within evangelical Christianity that this type of situation could even

497
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.240
happen and people were okay with it.

498
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:42.799
And let's continue reading.

499
00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:47.720
So new rapport operas insight into why the whole situation has.

500
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:49.839
Been so strange in Murky.

501
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:55.599
According to pastors Derek Brown and Cliff mccannis of Creekside

502
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.680
Bible Church in California, on an episode of their podcast,

503
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.680
Quote with All Wisdom, using information that had been quote

504
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.400
verified by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

505
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:07.880
Steve Lawson, though he.

506
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.680
Previously served as a pastor of previous churches, he was

507
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.759
neither a pastor, nor an elder and not even a member,

508
00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:21.279
nor was he even a member at Trinity Bible Church. Yes,

509
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:23.960
that's right, he was not a pastor. He was not

510
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.119
an elder at Trinity Bible Church, which we said. He

511
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.359
was not the pastor or lead pastor of that church,

512
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.079
but he wasn't even.

513
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:34.799
A member of the church.

514
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:37.519
How do you know this because and here's a little

515
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:42.200
picture from their website where they basically had admitted this

516
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.880
this was an open secret. But check this out. Notice

517
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:53.000
his title. Okay, so it's not like this was a secret.

518
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.680
The article continues, I've been trying to get a hold

519
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.160
of Trinity Bible Church. So it's these guys talking on

520
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.119
their podcast who revealed this. They said, We've been trying

521
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.599
to get a hold of Trinity Bible Church in Texas

522
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.160
for several weeks, and I finally got a hold of

523
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.680
someone that was willing to talk to me, who actually

524
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.440
worked at the church, and they verified everything that we said.

525
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:16.119
They were reluctant to talk to me, and they were

526
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.079
reluctant to tell me, but they agreed. He was not

527
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.680
an elder, he was not a pastor, he was not

528
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:24.960
the lead pastor. They kind of waffled when I said,

529
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.759
was he even a member? And they didn't want to

530
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:31.119
tell me, but it was pretty obvious Steve Lawson wasn't

531
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.759
even a member at this church.

532
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.400
Now, their audio kind of cut out there. I think

533
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:43.799
what they were showing is on the article there's a

534
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:47.279
picture listing all the staff members, right, and I think

535
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.079
the other people are like elder, pastor, and I think

536
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.079
they just have him listed as like teacher. I can't

537
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.759
remember how it's listed, but he's not listed as an elder,

538
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.559
he's not listed as a pastor. He's not listed anywhere

539
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.000
like that. So in a sense, it was kind of

540
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.359
an open secret. It was right there, but nobody ever really,

541
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:05.680
I guess nobody ever really caught on or ever or

542
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:06.759
you know, anybody who went.

543
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:07.039
To the well.

544
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.440
Typically when people go to a website like that, unless

545
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.759
they're considering joining the church, they're probably just looking for

546
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.759
the sermons of a specific speaker, in this particular case,

547
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:19.480
Steve Lawson. So I doubt they were looking around, but

548
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:21.640
I guess it was kind of right there in the open.

549
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.559
But no one ever stopped and go, well, wait a minute,

550
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:25.079
what does that mean. I think you would just look

551
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.200
at it and probably not even register in your mind.

552
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.319
Will wait a minute, what is this person's actual position?

553
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:35.839
So it appears he had no connection to any of this. Now,

554
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:38.400
again to me, this has nothing to do with the

555
00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:41.119
scandal per se. Everyone wants to say, well, see this

556
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:42.000
is the reason with the scan.

557
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.880
Let's just make it. Let's just stop that.

558
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.319
Okay, let me make it very A lot of people like, well,

559
00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.720
see if he was in this situation or this situation,

560
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.680
there wouldn't be a scandal, there wouldn't be a fall.

561
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.680
Let me make it very clear. Pastors have sinned and

562
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:59.279
fallen into sin, and denominational churches and independent churches they have.

563
00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:03.480
They have fallen in churches that are congregational led pastor led.

564
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.240
They have fallen in churches that have elder rule. It

565
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:12.839
doesn't matter the structure, it doesn't matter the quote unquote accountability.

566
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:17.039
People sin because sin arises from within us. It's a

567
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.319
part of our sinful nature.

568
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:19.319
It's what we do.

569
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:21.799
It comes from there, and we always think that we

570
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:24.319
can put these structures in place that will stop it.

571
00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:26.079
You can't stop.

572
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.839
Is what is inevitably going to happen, which is sin

573
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:31.279
of some case.

574
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:32.799
Now you may be able to say, well you.

575
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.279
Could protect from this particular sin or this particular sin,

576
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:39.119
that's a different story. Hey, hey, we know you're going

577
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.680
to sin, but these are the sins we have to stop.

578
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.480
So here are our thirty seven step program to ensure

579
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.319
you don't commit that sin.

580
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:49.599
Now, that's at least that's being.

581
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:54.200
Honest, because even if you stop this particular sin. Every

582
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:57.519
pastor is in sin because God's standard is perfection. No

583
00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:59.880
one is perfect. Therefore we're in a perpetual state of

584
00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:01.599
falling short of that perfection.

585
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.119
So we are all in sin.

586
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:04.920
I mean, I don't know why that's so difficult for

587
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.599
Christians to admit, but particular sin. So everyone's focusing on

588
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.920
why he wasn't even a member. Yeah, now they want

589
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:14.200
to use it to talk now. Some want to use

590
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.519
this to say this is the reason he fell.

591
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:17.599
That's ridiculous.

592
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.480
Others want to use this to say this is evidence

593
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.759
of celebrity culture, and I think it is. I think

594
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:28.400
we have reached a celebrity culture. You know, peak right,

595
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:33.920
We've reached We've reached mass destruction when people now the

596
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.599
person who I guess is the lead speaker at their

597
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.000
church is not even a member of the church. He

598
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:42.720
just gets paid each week to show up. Now, in

599
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.599
some ways, I don't know how shocking that is.

600
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:45.200
Right.

601
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.160
We see, if I leave my house in about five minutes,

602
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.640
get on Highway eighty three eighty four head south, maybe

603
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:55.359
maybe five minutes down the road. I think it's about

604
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:57.599
five minutes. On the left hand side of the highway

605
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:01.880
as River of Life River of Life Church. It's a

606
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.400
big kind of ecumenical evangelical type church, kind of you know,

607
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.799
one of those more modernized evangelical kinds of churches has

608
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.319
the big praise band. Well, I used to know the

609
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.400
drummer of their praise band. In fact, I worked with

610
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:20.480
the drummer. He was an atheist. He got paid I

611
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.880
think it was three hundred dollars every Sunday, may have

612
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.240
been three fifty. I don't remember the exact dollar amount

613
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:26.920
to play the drums and their praise band.

614
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:28.839
And he was an atheist.

615
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:31.359
And I worked with him until he got kicked out

616
00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:37.119
of the military for drug use. An atheistic drug user

617
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.759
was the drummer for their praise band because they just

618
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.720
paid him money to play the drums because he was

619
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.680
really really really really really really really really good drummer.

620
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:50.440
He was a drummer for lots of country artist and

621
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.839
he would go to Austin on the weekends sometimes to

622
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.759
do studio work for a lot of different bands and artists,

623
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:59.160
and oh he would make sure he was back on

624
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.799
Sunday make a good three hundred dollars for like an

625
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:07.799
hour of work playing in the praise band. So it's

626
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.079
in a sense, it's was already happening there, right. And

627
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.160
then in some cases I'm not shocked by this because

628
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:15.640
the first time I became shocked by some of this

629
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.240
is in my early I mean, i'd been a saved

630
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:21.720
for a few years and I was, you know, learning

631
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.200
about the Christian music industry at the time, and a

632
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.839
lot of revelations were coming out. There was somewhat shocking,

633
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.759
and I found out over and over and over that

634
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.720
these Christian musicians they didn't go to church, They're not

635
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.200
even members of a church nothing, but they were utilizing

636
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.759
the church. They were playing at church conferences and going

637
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:42.799
to youth camps and youth rallies. They needed the church

638
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:45.480
to further their career. But many of them were not

639
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:47.720
a member of a church, didn't go to church. And

640
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.160
You're like, wait a minute, how can these Christian artists

641
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.839
and a sense use the church in order to further

642
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:54.960
their career but they're not part of one.

643
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:56.200
What is that all about?

644
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.079
Right, So in this particular case, it's the same thing.

645
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.759
So it happened to Christian music. It happened even in church.

646
00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:05.200
I know at least one case where it happens even

647
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:09.400
in a church praise band. So I guess now you

648
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.480
know there's at least one pastor.

649
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.039
We know who. He shows up eat Sunday, he got

650
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.920
paid and he left.

651
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.799
It appears according again we need verification for all of this,

652
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:19.599
that he.

653
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.440
Wasn't even a member. Now does that bother? Does it

654
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.559
not bother you? But again you can argue that.

655
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:31.759
But is that not the pinnacle the peak of celebrity

656
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:34.319
pastor in that case, celebrity speaker.

657
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.720
Now listen, if Steve Lawson was invited to speak once

658
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.960
in a while, you know, every six months, they have

659
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.480
a guest speaker come in, no problem. But for that

660
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:50.000
kind of arrangement just to have him come in for

661
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.920
an hour or two a week and he's not even

662
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.559
he's not even a member there, but he's preaching every

663
00:32:56.599 --> 00:32:59.640
single week. And that's the arrangement to have a celebrity.

664
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:03.680
What's the problem with that, Well, there's no accountability, right,

665
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:08.759
You're setting up the situation to blow up in your face.

666
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:13.519
No accountability. He has no real responsibility with the people.

667
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.880
He doesn't even know the people that he's speaking to

668
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000
week after week. Again, if he was coming in to

669
00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:22.160
speak once a year or something, then fine. But if

670
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.240
you're going to be if you're going to act as

671
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:26.680
the pastor and preach every single week. That's what the

672
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:31.240
pastor's job is. You need to know the flock. But anyway,

673
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.279
this is just unbelievable. The article continues. They that is

674
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:41.200
the church, Trinity Bible. They also agreed and acknowledged that,

675
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:44.839
as far as they know, the elders at their church

676
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:48.799
are not the ones managing the Matthew eighteen process with

677
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:55.200
Steve Lawson. They are not disciplining him because they can't. Okay,

678
00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:00.559
So Trinity Bible Church seems to have admitted that they

679
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.319
are not They are actually not in the process of

680
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.440
disciplining Steve Lawson because they can't because he's not even

681
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.000
a member of our church. We can't discipline a non member.

682
00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:17.360
Absolutely outrageous, Okay, let's continue. Notably, the original announcement from

683
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.079
Trinity reads quote, the elders at Trinity Bible Church of

684
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:27.119
Dallas regretfully announced that, effective immediately, Stephen J. Lawson has

685
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:32.440
been removed indefinitely from all ministry activities at Trinity Bible

686
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:37.119
Church of Dallas. Noticed that while he was removed indefinitely

687
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.119
from all ministry activities, he was not removed from a position.

688
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:46.400
He was removed from all ministry activities instead, so he

689
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.039
wasn't removed from being an elder or a pastor. So

690
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:55.119
they say, what was Lawson if he wasn't their pastor

691
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:01.039
or elder. He was the regular guest preacher, otherwise known

692
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:04.840
as the lead preacher. And you saw that on the website,

693
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.719
receiving a dispensation from the elders to preach the sermon

694
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.039
and then depart once the message was done. What we

695
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.840
know now is Steve Lawson didn't want to be a pastor.

696
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.280
He was a pastor at two previous churches and it

697
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.800
didn't go well at either place. There was division, there

698
00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.760
were church splits. It's kind of an ugly history. And

699
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.079
then he got to a point and he said, I

700
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:35.920
don't want to be a pastor, and they honored his wishes. Well,

701
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.119
if he didn't want to be a pastor, he shouldn't

702
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.559
be preaching, that's my opinion, because what are the qualifications. See,

703
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.159
they're blending it all together. He's acting as if he's

704
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:51.039
the pastor, but he's not the pastor. So I know

705
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.159
some people might disagree and they say, oh, this is

706
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:56.559
a fine situation. If a church wants to outsource the

707
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.920
preaching on Sunday morning to some celebrity or somebody who's

708
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:02.239
not even a member. They can do that and he

709
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.639
can just you know, whisk him in and out. And

710
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.039
that it's not right. I don't care what anyone says.

711
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:08.639
That ain't right.

712
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:10.719
That's not what we see in the Bible. That is

713
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.440
not that is not the biblical model. So it says

714
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:18.639
they honored his wishes and he was just a teacher.

715
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.599
You just note at that point, I don't know how

716
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:25.800
you hold for Timothy three against him.

717
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.039
So they they, they set it all up.

718
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.119
I'll play just a little bit more here in a second,

719
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.360
because I want to just get into a few more things.

720
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.119
But I want I want you to just show what

721
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:35.519
I want you to take from all of this. I

722
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:37.519
know we've talked about a lot of things. It's just

723
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:39.800
take that this is really the pinnacle. This is the

724
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:45.079
tip of the celebrity pastor the whole phenomenon. Right now,

725
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:49.679
someone can just get paid a weekly fee to show up,

726
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.480
preach and leave and have no connection, no affiliation, no

727
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:58.239
membership of any local church, and not even as a pastor.

728
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:02.320
So they're not they say no accountability. Again, accountability does

729
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.800
not stop sin. Okay, it can may stop certain sins

730
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:06.760
if you have enough safeguards that you know nobody has

731
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.519
an opportunity. I guess you could prevent some, but you're

732
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:11.400
still gonna be sinning in some way, shape or form.

733
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:16.639
But the issue becomes to me that it's not so

734
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:20.920
much about accountability or not accountability. The issue becomes, Okay, well,

735
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:26.280
now what do you do? Like, he's just a speaker

736
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.280
that you paid money to come in. He's not associated

737
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.840
with your church other than he's your speaker. He's not

738
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.239
a member. He's not unless you have a contract, a

739
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.239
contract that he signed. He's signed a If there's no contract,

740
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:42.079
who just like he shows up and then we give

741
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:44.840
him a certain amount and the church just pays a

742
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.280
certain amount for the speaker. There's no contractual obligation. He

743
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:51.639
hasn't signed a contract. Then really there's no what do

744
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:53.679
you I don't even know what you do there? Like,

745
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:55.719
I don't even know how you even handle that. It

746
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.480
raises a bunch of questions. So everyone else can handle that,

747
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.000
but it's it's the celebrity thing. And we're going to

748
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.000
go through that really quick here and just man I'm

749
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:06.679
going to go through a little bit of church history

750
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.440
about well some of this stuff.

751
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:14.559
Was a guest teacher at all these places, guest teacher

752
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.440
at Liganier and Trinity Bible Church.

753
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:19.880
The revelation tracks.

754
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:23.039
With what several members of Trinity Bible Church have reported

755
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:26.440
to us, saying that loss and scandalous affair open their

756
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:30.880
eyes to how problematic and challenging some of his behavior was,

757
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:35.960
you think, which was never really questioned or considered before,

758
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:39.880
but now is glaring in the light of this new exposure.

759
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.440
Members report that he would show up on Sundays, head

760
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:48.119
straight to the back, preach the sermon, and then leave

761
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:52.920
immediately after, rarely if ever, sticking around to shake hands

762
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.480
or spend time talking to these you know lowly uh,

763
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.239
you know church people like I don't even want to

764
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.199
have to deal with these people. Just ride in and

765
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:03.480
ride out and get paid.

766
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:05.320
And that's it. That's what they're saying.

767
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:10.599
And what's the excuse Steve Lawson had to quote unquote

768
00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:12.679
guard his time?

769
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:14.719
Whose fault is this?

770
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:19.000
Obviously the scandal the affair, The affair is Steve Lawson's

771
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.559
fault and the woman obviously, But you know, the elders

772
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:27.440
of the church they allowed for this situation. If the

773
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.559
guy doesn't want to be a pastor, if he doesn't

774
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:33.000
want to spend any time with God's people, he has

775
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:39.039
no business teaching God's people. Okay, some exceptions, and this again,

776
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:42.599
this is the whole problem with celebrity Christianity. You know,

777
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.559
the celebrity pastors. They're completely inaccessible and many of them

778
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.320
are unaccountable. So this has happened with This may not

779
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.440
happen with Steve Lawson because in the Reformed world they're

780
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:59.360
much more strict. But there's a long list of celebrity

781
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.119
preachers the get busted, you know, in an affair, embezzling money.

782
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:05.800
You know, they wait six months.

783
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.639
Or a year until things, you know, kind of die down,

784
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.719
and then they're right back at it. Why Because there's

785
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:15.840
no accountability. There's a celebrity, they will always have a following.

786
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:19.159
We see that with Hillsong that's starting up again, you know,

787
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:21.840
Karl Lentz and Brian Houston and a lot of these

788
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:25.039
charismatic preachers. You know, there's no accountability that just come

789
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.920
back and start it all over again, start the scam

790
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:29.719
all over again.

791
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:34.719
I love the fact they say there's no accountability. I love.

792
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:37.360
Okay, So exactly what kind of system would you want

793
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:38.360
to have accountability?

794
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.559
Exactly? Let me explain.

795
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.440
I would like you to explain to me what's the

796
00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:47.079
system that would mean? There's only like one denomination that

797
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:54.719
controls everything, so you don't want any independent churches. Nobody

798
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.840
can start a church. Well, what happens when there's fights

799
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:01.119
and a denomination and people split from that denomination? Well,

800
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.400
wait a minute, where's the accountability? You can have a denomination.

801
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:06.119
People split from denominations all the time.

802
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:07.400
A lot of times we celebrate it.

803
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.559
Going those are the Conservatives fighting and they well wait

804
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:13.800
a minute, wait a minute, where's the accountability? The denomination

805
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:16.719
couldn't hold them accountability because they just pulled away and split.

806
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.519
So then they go form another group. So then you

807
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.440
got to be who are you accountable to? Which group?

808
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.320
The original group or the new group? And then those

809
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.760
groups then people may leave those groups then go start

810
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:31.239
another group. So where's the any accountability? You say, Well,

811
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:34.519
if they were in a denomination, the denomination wouldn't.

812
00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:34.639
Let them back.

813
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:37.639
Well, they can go start another denomination, they start another church,

814
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:40.000
they can go start another movement, they can go start anything.

815
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.559
There's no, unless you go back to like there's one church. Okay,

816
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:48.280
there's one church and that's it. Every other church is

817
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:51.480
not recognized. There's only one. Well it sounds like the

818
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:54.559
Roman Catholic system. But while we celebrate the guy who

819
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:57.519
broke away, well he got removed and then well guess

820
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:01.000
what an entire group no ultimately come to know as

821
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.840
the Lutherans started breaking away from that group, and then

822
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:07.199
people broke away from Lutherans to start their group, and

823
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.199
then people broke away from them to start their group,

824
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:11.840
and then people broke away from them, and then people

825
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.880
broke away and then them, and then them, and then

826
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:14.840
them and then and.

827
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:15.840
Where does it ever stop?

828
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.400
So what do you mean accountability? Well, these guys just

829
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.519
come back. How are you going to hold them accountable?

830
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.360
Tomorrow?

831
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.000
Someone could start at church tomorrow, someone could break away

832
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.199
from I mean, look at what happened to the Methodists.

833
00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:28.000
I mean how many different groups have emerged from that.

834
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:30.639
I can't even keep up all the different Presbyterian groups,

835
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:33.159
all the different Baptist group. I mean, it just goes

836
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:34.639
on and on and on and on. So how do

837
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:36.760
you I don't even know what that means? We need

838
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:42.079
accountability accountability. How but you can deal with the rest

839
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:44.239
of that issue. So let's talk a little bit about

840
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:47.400
celebrity pastors. And again I'm going to first turn my

841
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:52.400
attention to the whole conference issue. All Right, people paying

842
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.840
money to hear the word of God preached.

843
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:54.199
All Right.

844
00:42:54.679 --> 00:43:00.000
The conference industry, with its tickets, VIP access, and large venues,

845
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:03.519
can indeed fuel a culture where certain pastors or speakers

846
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:09.239
are elevated to celebrity status. The setup often mirrors the

847
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:12.880
dynamics of fame, making the preacher seem more like figures

848
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:16.480
to admire from a distance than shepherds to connect with personally.

849
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:19.159
It could be argued that this approach blurs the line

850
00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:22.800
between faith driven teaching and entertainment, feeding into the very

851
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.800
issues often criticized for and the celebrity pastor phenomenon. And

852
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.280
that's exactly what happens. Have you ever been to these conferences?

853
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:33.000
If lucky, the only thing you get to do is

854
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.239
stand in line with other people.

855
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:35.440
Is they run up there and.

856
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.440
Say, sign my Bible, take a selfie, selfie with me.

857
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:43.199
I mean, it's the same nonsense. It's the same nonsense

858
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:44.360
the first time.

859
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.119
And I've talked about this that I was ever really

860
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.719
really kind of confronted with this is I was going

861
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:51.840
that evening, I was going to go to a Christian

862
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.199
contemporary Christian music concert, right, and I think the name

863
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.599
of the band was Mortal, the kind of an industrial

864
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:02.159
nineties sound, right, kind of an industrial rock kind of sound.

865
00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:04.920
And I went to the bookstore where they were going

866
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:06.440
to do a signing, right, they were going to do

867
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.920
kind of a signing, and they didn't really want to

868
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:11.480
be there. Obviously it became my parents. They didn't really

869
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.360
want to be there, and they didn't really do a

870
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:15.239
signing like you typically would do, because you've ever been

871
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:17.320
to one of these signings at a Christian bookstore, they

872
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:19.320
have a table set up, everybody waits in line, you

873
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.880
walk up, you can sign a photograph of them, or

874
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.239
you can have them sign your album, you can take

875
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.159
a selfie with them, and then you got to move on.

876
00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.679
You move on, just like they do in the secular world. Well,

877
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.119
when I walked into the store, there was no line,

878
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:33.440
there was no table. I was kind of like, what's

879
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:35.599
going on? And the guys from the band were just

880
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:40.599
walking around the bookstore looking around, and I'm like, what's

881
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:43.320
going on here? So I kind of walked up and

882
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.360
he was like, Hey, nice to meet you. But man,

883
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:48.440
we don't do the whole autograph thing. We don't sign autographs.

884
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:49.960
We don't do that, but hey would love to talk

885
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000
to you. So we sat there and talked. He talked

886
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.920
about the books he likes to read and different theological

887
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.480
issues and I'm like, well, why don't you do the

888
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.960
signing autographs. He's like, well, if I'm in a Christian

889
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.679
band and this is ministry, should ministers be signing autographs?

890
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.800
Should we be elevating ourselves? Are we supposed to point

891
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:10.480
you to Christ not to ourselves?

892
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:13.480
And was like, whoa, leave it.

893
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:15.840
Leave it to a Christian rock band to have better

894
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:19.639
theology than many conservative churches who would condemn that rock

895
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.199
band to the eighteenth level.

896
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.000
Of hell because our music is demonic.

897
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.039
Okay, So I'm like, whoa, But you see that all

898
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:28.199
the time in these conferences. You can't get to the

899
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:32.599
people unless you have a VIP access and everyone's just there.

900
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:35.280
To sign my Bible, sign this, let me take a selfie.

901
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:37.199
And it's like, what is happening right now?

902
00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:43.320
And well, litle, that literally fuels the problem that everyone condemns.

903
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:49.519
If people are paying to attend these conferences. It implies

904
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.320
that the preaching of God's word is something well, like

905
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.719
a commodity. It's been turned into a commodity. It's something

906
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.840
they're purchasing, like any other product or event. It shifts

907
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.679
the focus from the message to the messenger, suggesting that

908
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:04.159
people might be drawn as much, if not more, to

909
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:07.800
the personalities and reputations of the speakers than to the

910
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:11.239
word being preached. This not only turns preaching into a product,

911
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:14.760
but it also reinforces the celebrity status of pastors, placing

912
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.760
them in a spotlight that is ironically often at odds

913
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.760
with humility and service oriented nature of the pastoral role.

914
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:23.599
So there's a problem.

915
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:31.280
The conference industrial complex gives rise to the celebrity pastor.

916
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:35.719
Everyone condemns the celebrity pastor while supporting the very industry

917
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:38.159
that promotes it. And they and it's so weird that

918
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.400
they can't see it. Oh, I'm sick of these celebrity pastors.

919
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.639
And then they do all the things that are part

920
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:44.840
of that.

921
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:47.280
Idea.

922
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.719
So where what is the origin of people starting to

923
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:53.400
be charged to hear the Bible preach? So I had

924
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:56.440
to trace the origin, and what I found is. Tracing

925
00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:00.280
the exact origin of charging for access to preaching can

926
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.599
be sometimes complex, but there are some key historical shifts

927
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.320
that help explain maybe how this developed. First, we have

928
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:13.000
the Mid Evil and Renaissance period. The Mid Evil and

929
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:17.639
Renaissance period, the concept of paying for religious services was

930
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:23.000
not new. During the Middle Ages, people often paid for indulgences.

931
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:28.840
Remember that we just passed October thirty, First Reformation Day, right,

932
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:34.760
paid for indulgences or to support your People often paid

933
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:38.719
for indulgences or to support churches with sometimes indirectly funded

934
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.800
preaching events. However, access to preaching itself was generally free,

935
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.679
as sermons were often public and considered a core duty

936
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:48.079
of the church. So they may not have had people

937
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.760
paying necessarily for preaching, but they would pay for different

938
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:51.840
things like indulgence.

939
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:53.960
So yeah, and around it. By the way, the.

940
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.559
Church is always found a way to get money from people.

941
00:47:57.639 --> 00:47:59.599
They've always found a way. They always have to have

942
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.960
a produce. Here's an indulgence that'll get someone out of purgatory.

943
00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:05.599
Or hey, here here is the preaching of.

944
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:06.119
So and so.

945
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.920
Either way, we always find to turn something into a

946
00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:11.880
product package it, market it and sell it.

947
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:14.760
And well, it started in the mid Evil and Renaissance period.

948
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:18.119
If you jump to the Reformation time, the Protestant Reformation

949
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:22.559
emphasized the free proclamation of the word, pushing back against

950
00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:25.920
any notion of paying for grace. Leaders like Martin Luther

951
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:31.199
strongly opposed the idea of monetizing religious teaching. This stance

952
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:35.960
influenced Protestant traditions to value free access to sermons and scriptures.

953
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.400
So at least during the Reformation they were like no, no, no, no,

954
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:42.000
because they were rebelling in a sense against the whole

955
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:46.760
indulgences and that whole system. So then they were like, no, free,

956
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.400
We're not going to monetize this. There's no monetizing the

957
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.119
preaching of God's word. Let's not do that, all right, Okay,

958
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.840
that makes sense, right, I think it does.

959
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:56.320
Well.

960
00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:59.280
Then this leads to then there so we have the

961
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.400
medievil Renaissance period, we have the Reformation influence, and then

962
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:04.639
we jump to the Revivalist movement in the eighteenth and

963
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:08.519
nineteenth century in the US and Europe. Revival movements, led

964
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:11.519
by figures like George Whitfield, John Wesley, and Charles Finley,

965
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:15.880
brought large crowds often and outdoor camp meetings. While preaching

966
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.920
was generally free, costs related to traveling evangelists, traveling evangelists

967
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:25.239
and event logistics sometimes led to offerings or suggested donations,

968
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:29.440
yet entry fees were rare. So it started happening a

969
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:32.039
little bit. But notice what why did it start? You

970
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:38.000
get these pastors, these preachers who become basically celebrities, Finny Whitfield.

971
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:41.519
They become an attraction, and then you hold these big

972
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:46.000
events where people come. So it's no longer a local

973
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:49.679
church thing. It becomes a more public thing. It becomes

974
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.519
a spectacle. It becomes an event. Instead of a Sunday

975
00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:56.159
morning worship service or a Monday night worship service, it

976
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:58.679
becomes an event where you bring all the people together.

977
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:01.039
So now you're going to have to a building. Now

978
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:03.400
you're going to have to have a you know, an area,

979
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.360
and so there's going to be logistics, and there's going

980
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.320
to be money. Now, maybe if it stayed within the

981
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:10.920
local church, none of that would have ever happened, right,

982
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.440
I mean just the thought, just the thought, But you

983
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:16.280
already start seeing a little bit of happening. And then

984
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.079
we get to number four, the rise of evangel even

985
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:24.079
evangelistic if I can read correctly, evangelistic crusades of the

986
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:32.079
twentieth century, Figures like Billy Graham. Okay here, sorry, I'm

987
00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:33.119
having issues right.

988
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:37.360
Now, Yes you are, okay. That was Ai talking to me.

989
00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:41.639
I accidentally pressed Ai and AI started talking to me.

990
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:43.599
I thought Siri was getting ready to talk to me.

991
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.840
I said something that activated all of them at the

992
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.639
same time. I don't know what I said, but all

993
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:50.079
of a sudden activated all of them. Figures like Billy

994
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:53.639
Graham held large scale. Maybe large scale did it?

995
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:54.159
I don't know.

996
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:59.280
Large scale Evangelistic crusades and arenas often free are with volunteering,

997
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:04.360
voluntary donations. The conference model, where tickets were sold for

998
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.599
organized Christian events, began in the mid twentieth century.

999
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.239
We're in the mid twentieth century where.

1000
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:17.280
You start having tickets being sold for organized Christian events.

1001
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:19.239
I want you to that just shows you it has

1002
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:23.480
no connection to historical Christianity. So when you start selling

1003
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:27.320
tickets for organized Christian events. It began most likely in

1004
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:29.840
the mid twentieth century with the growth of megachurches and

1005
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:35.480
Christian publishing. Conferences expanded to feature numerous speakers, requiring funds

1006
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:42.559
for venues logistics and speaker honorariums, gradually leading to ticketed events.

1007
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:47.159
Then this leads to the modern conference celebrity culture. In

1008
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:51.000
recent decades, as certain pastors and speakers become well known,

1009
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:56.119
churches and organizations began organizing ticketed conferences around these figures.

1010
00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:00.320
This format transformed preaching into a packaged experience, with high

1011
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:05.320
profile speakers, music, and other attractions mirroring. Basically, they were

1012
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:12.039
mirroring secular entertainment and conference industries. So while charging directly

1013
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.239
for access to preaching is relatively modern, it's rooted in

1014
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.920
developments like large scale revivalism and the logistical needs for

1015
00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:22.199
big events. The shift from free to paid access is

1016
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:28.760
tied to the cultural shift towards professionalized, celebrity driven faith

1017
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:33.920
events in recent history. So if everyone wants to get

1018
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:36.039
caught up in all of the scandal of Steve Lawson,

1019
00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:37.840
you can get caught up in all the scandal and

1020
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:40.159
yell and scream and tell them everyone how you don't

1021
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:42.320
sin and everyone else does and he's going to hell,

1022
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.719
and you can do all of that, or you can say, man,

1023
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:47.519
maybe the lesson we're hitting here is well one, the

1024
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:50.159
church doesn't really know how to acknowledge the reality of sin.

1025
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.679
And two wait, he wasn't a member of a church.

1026
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:55.920
He wasn't a pastor. He just got paid to show

1027
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.199
up each week and preach. What in the name of

1028
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:03.199
bubblegum is this? What it is is the celebrity pastor

1029
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:10.159
phenomenon at its pinnacle. But here's the problem. Everyone who

1030
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:16.199
condemns the celebrity pastor almost inevitably participates, and the whole

1031
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:23.360
celebrity pastor industry.

1032
00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:27.599
You do I have as well? I don't have one

1033
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.480
here in front of me. I don't have one here

1034
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:30.920
in front of me.

1035
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:31.800
I don't think I do.

1036
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:35.760
No, I do not have a MacArthur Study Bible in

1037
00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:37.119
front of me. I don't.

1038
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:38.639
I'm checking.

1039
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:40.599
I think it's probably sitting at church.

1040
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.719
But I I the first one I did not buy.

1041
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.880
The first one I got for free. But I think

1042
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:47.400
the second one I did purchase.

1043
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:48.599
So there we go.

1044
00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.760
I purchased a study Bible with a man's name embolden

1045
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:58.159
up on the cover. That's that's that's the celebrity. When

1046
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.920
you're buying a Bible with a man's name on it.

1047
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:04.280
I was celebrating the celebrity pastor.

1048
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.039
I was. I was, Oh, you want to make it,

1049
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:09.480
I'll make it even worse.

1050
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:13.280
Early on, back in the day, if you wanted MacArthur's sermons,

1051
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:17.360
you had you could subscribe for like a monthly fee

1052
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.159
like we you know, way back before you had all

1053
00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:23.079
these subscription services. You could subscribe to MacArthur. And what

1054
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:25.119
they would do, this is even before the internet. They

1055
00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:29.280
would send you cassettes each week of the sermons. You

1056
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:31.639
paid a monthly fee and you would get the.

1057
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:32.559
Sermons each week.

1058
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.400
Well, there you go. So I was paying for access

1059
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.159
to the preaching of Gost. I participated in it. I

1060
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:40.800
was right there.

1061
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:41.559
I was young.

1062
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:44.159
I didn't understand. I entered into the Christian world and

1063
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:46.239
I just like, oh, there's bookstores, and then there's this,

1064
00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:48.800
and there's this, and I just kind of oh, there's

1065
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:52.039
Christian music, there's concerts, and like, okay, so I just

1066
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.679
I'm leaving all the world and I've just entered into

1067
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:57.719
now the Christian bubble, and it's just its own industry.

1068
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.000
It's got its own celebrities, it's got its own product,

1069
00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:02.719
it's got its own merch and I was right there

1070
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:04.599
in all of it. And it took a long time

1071
00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:06.920
for me to guys start thinking there's something wrong with

1072
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:14.559
all of this. Yes, and I probably I didn't really

1073
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:17.280
catch on, and probably until a conferences when I started

1074
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:20.880
realizing the amount of money people would pay to get

1075
00:55:20.920 --> 00:55:23.079
into a conference to hear someone preach the word of God.

1076
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:27.800
That's when I really started going, I'm having some issues.

1077
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:30.320
And I think really the first time it really hit

1078
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:34.800
me was in when I lived in Bellevue, Nebraska and

1079
00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:38.760
the Assemblies of God Church and Bellevview, Nebraska, large Assemblies

1080
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:43.400
of God church Christian concert was going to happen. Steven

1081
00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:47.199
Curtis Chapman was coming to Bellevue and Nebraska and they

1082
00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:51.000
were playing in this church, and I thought, I'll get tickets.

1083
00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:54.000
And now this was in the nineteen nineties, ladies and gentlemen,

1084
00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:57.320
and I think the tickets was like fifty dollars a

1085
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:01.960
person to get inside a church, to get inside a

1086
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:05.719
church to see this conference. Now with a family, I

1087
00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:07.239
was like, this is going to cost me, like, you know,

1088
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:08.480
two hundred.

1089
00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:11.000
Dollars, Well, this is crazy. I can't I was an

1090
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:12.840
airman in the United States Military. I'm like, there's no

1091
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:14.280
way to go. There's no way I can go.

1092
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.760
But at one hand, they meant it it was come

1093
00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:19.039
here Stephen Curtis Chapman, minister. So I got to pay

1094
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.519
two hundred dollars to be ministered to the whole thing.

1095
00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:23.760
And I already is having problems because by this point,

1096
00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.639
even as a teenager, I'd volunteered for Carmen who was

1097
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:29.360
a famous Christian musician, and he didn't charge anyone for

1098
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:30.039
his concerts.

1099
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:31.840
And he had a huge stage.

1100
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:34.000
I don't put together the stage, put together the sound

1101
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:38.400
of quick I volunteered. I was a huge dancers, lights,

1102
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:42.400
the whole thing, huge production. He took a love offering,

1103
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:44.280
but he didn't charge people money to get in. And

1104
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:46.440
I'm like, okay, well wait a minute. Something doesn't make

1105
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:50.119
sense here. So we started questioning it. So we contacted

1106
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.800
the church and we found out that the church charges

1107
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:56.039
money for Stephen Curtis Chapman to use their building. I'm like, wait,

1108
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:59.199
so the church now charges people to use their building

1109
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.239
the minister, so the church now was operating a side

1110
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:06.039
hustle where they rent out their building. That sounds problematic.

1111
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:08.280
And then when we contact I think Stephen Curtis Chapman,

1112
00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:10.599
we got We've got some replies from like a managers

1113
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.599
and they try to argue, you know, well the ministry

1114
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:15.320
is free, but I mean it costs money for this,

1115
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:16.800
and it costs money for them, and it's like the

1116
00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:21.039
whole thing is like, well, something I'm not understanding. And

1117
00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:22.880
I think then they said, well it costs money to

1118
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:24.360
use the building, and I'm like, well, why is it

1119
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:25.760
costing money to use the building?

1120
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:26.920
It's a stinking church.

1121
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:29.400
Why wouldn't the church say you can use our building

1122
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:31.280
for free because we want you to minister to people.

1123
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:33.360
And how can we cover the cost so that we

1124
00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:35.639
can get people into the building for cheaper because we

1125
00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:37.960
want the building packed so that minister people can be

1126
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:40.039
ministered to by his music. I mean, the whole thing

1127
00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:41.960
just seemed like no everyone was in it to get

1128
00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:43.800
a piece of the pie and make some money. So

1129
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:46.599
that's when I started having some major issues with it.

1130
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:53.440
But the industry, the Christian celebrity, look, you can if

1131
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:56.320
you condemn it, then you better look at yourself. That's

1132
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:58.719
what I'm going to say. People will look at like

1133
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.199
a Joe Ostein or or a Stephen Ferdach or name

1134
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:04.119
some of these famous pastors, and they're like.

1135
00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.840
These celebrities pastors made me sick, right, and it's like, but.

1136
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:13.480
You're supporting the same industry. You're just supporting the industry

1137
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:22.239
that's promoting your favorite celebrities, not those celebrities. Either the

1138
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:27.400
whole system is wrong, or you can't, or you can't.

1139
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:28.599
Then pick and choose.

1140
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:30.960
Either either the whole system is right or the whole

1141
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:35.360
system is wrong. It's kind of an either or, And

1142
00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:43.360
now everybody's all shocked. Now I can't the first last broadcast,

1143
00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.639
we did claim that Steve Lawson's doctrine about the church

1144
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:48.519
was wrong. So that's why I send that's just that

1145
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:51.639
was ridiculous. We've already talked about that. The issue here

1146
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:56.719
is we've reached a point where a man can just

1147
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:59.599
get paid weekly to show up, preach a sermon, and

1148
00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:03.559
leave and he's not the pastor, he's not an elder,

1149
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:05.119
he's not even a member of any church.

1150
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:05.679
It appears.

1151
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:11.199
Now you may not think there's a problem with that.

1152
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:15.079
Now that's that's a whole different issue. Is that wrong

1153
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:17.760
or is that right? We could have that discussion. We

1154
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:21.760
could have that discussion. I just know that that if

1155
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:24.440
that's the case, then what standard do you hold them

1156
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:26.800
to because they're just they're just paid to come in

1157
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:32.800
and preach a message, all right, lots of questions, lots

1158
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:35.239
of I don't have any good answers, but there you

1159
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:40.599
have it. You can you can take whatever you want.

1160
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:43.440
Let me just state this at the end. I know

1161
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:46.800
that article they quoted offered that they have confirmation about

1162
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:49.599
some of these facts being true. I don't know yet

1163
00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:52.159
if it's true or not true. Ever, once you, I

1164
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:56.519
just taking this controversy about Steve Lawson, and I'm just

1165
00:59:56.679 --> 00:59:59.480
using it to have these broader conversations. I'm not getting

1166
00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:02.599
caught up in all all of that. Right, everyone can

1167
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:05.760
have that conversation, but the deeper issues are what we

1168
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:06.559
need to discuss.

1169
01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.280
The deeper issues, all right.

1170
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:11.760
And some of the people criticizing him again are saying

1171
01:00:11.800 --> 01:00:15.159
crazy things like you know basically that you fall because

1172
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:19.159
your doctrine is wrong, and which completely misses the understanding

1173
01:00:19.239 --> 01:00:21.079
of sinful nature, which then they would have then a

1174
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:22.599
wrong doctrine about the sinful.

1175
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.719
Nature, which is just ironic, see the whole thing.

1176
01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:27.039
So, and even in this case, this person, I would

1177
01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:29.440
be much more in agreement with and everything he's saying.

1178
01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:31.480
I would be much more in agreement with a lot

1179
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:40.239
of the things he is saying but yeah, now he

1180
01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:42.920
talks about the accountability again, I still think, what does

1181
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:43.599
that even mean?

1182
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:48.079
I love that we need accountability for what If.

1183
01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:51.039
You're a part of a denomination, you can literally all

1184
01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:53.199
the people can split from a denomination and go form

1185
01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:54.119
another denomination.

1186
01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:56.480
So where's the accountability?

1187
01:00:56.559 --> 01:01:00.400
Well, you gotta have good why anybody can leave your

1188
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:02.800
denomination at anytime and go to any other one star.

1189
01:01:03.159 --> 01:01:06.519
I remember a church, and in fact, i'll end with this,

1190
01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:09.719
we talk about accountability. There are members in my church

1191
01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:13.280
who their previous church was located here in Applene, Texas.

1192
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:14.239
It no longer exists.

1193
01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:17.119
It fell apart, There was a church split, everything fell apart.

1194
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:20.519
But they and their church had to exercise church discipline

1195
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:23.480
over one of their teaching elders because he started teaching

1196
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:28.599
open theism right, So they confront confrontation. He wouldn't repent. Basically,

1197
01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:29.880
acted thought he was right.

1198
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:30.519
They were wrong.

1199
01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:34.360
They church disciplined him the very next sunday. The very

1200
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:37.320
next sunday, he was already in another church and I

1201
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:38.920
believe already teaching.

1202
01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:43.400
Well accountability.

1203
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:45.960
Well, I guess you held him accountable, but he just

1204
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:47.119
went right to another church.

1205
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:48.119
It didn't matter.

1206
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:50.880
He said, Well, accountability. Well, how are you going to

1207
01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:52.119
get accountability to worry?

1208
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:54.159
How? How? How do you how are you going to

1209
01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:54.760
even do that?

1210
01:01:56.360 --> 01:01:56.480
Like?

1211
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:58.000
What does they even look like? I mean, I don't

1212
01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:58.880
even know what that means.

1213
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:01.199
Well, you need to denominate so that people can leave

1214
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:05.719
that denomination and start another one. Okay, what is that

1215
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.239
these independent churches are so wrong? Okay, so they need

1216
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.000
to be under some hierarchy and there's some control, but

1217
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:15.800
at some point they can rebel against that hierarchy.

1218
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:21.360
Right, So yeah, I think accountability is an illusion.

1219
01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:26.039
You can create some but I mean, yeah, the point

1220
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:28.599
is is, especially in the non Catholic world, we believe

1221
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:31.119
that I read the Bible, I determine if it's sure

1222
01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:33.519
or false, and I'm the one who judges whether what's

1223
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.760
being preached is true or false. And yeah, I mean

1224
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:38.920
it comes very much down to an individualistic kind of thing.

1225
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:39.960
All right, thanks for listening.

1226
01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:45.280
It's now fast approaching ten forty much more I could say,

1227
01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:48.159
but we've gone an hour, so I think we've covered

1228
01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:51.360
about everything we can cover. Now you can process it

1229
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:52.320
and have your own debates.

1230
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:54.039
Thanks for listening. God bless