Nov. 10, 2024

Celebrity Pastors and Church Membership

Celebrity Pastors and Church Membership

Some important issues to consider

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Some important issues to consider

WEBVTT

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective.

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This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central.

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Well and our last broadcast, we discovered the secret of Secrets.

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We have discovered why Christians have been sinning for two

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thousand years plus. We have figured it all out because

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of a YouTube video. We discovered that the reason pastors

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fall into sin, and logically it would be implied, then

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why you fall into sin, why we all fall into sin,

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is because if our doctrine is.

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Wrong, then our morals will be wrong.

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Right doctrine fixes your morals, you'll just never sin again,

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you'll stop sinning. I guess you will basically be perfect.

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But if your doctrine is not correct, then you're going

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to sin and sin and sin and sin. Now I

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don't know exactly who gets to determine whose doctrine is

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right or whose doctrine is wrong, And I don't really

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quite understand and how after two thousand years of church

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history we have seen sin, scandal and failure. Presbyterians, Baptists,

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Church of Christ, Charismatics, non Charismatics, you name it, free will,

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Baptist Reform Baptists. You just name the denomination, you name

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the group, and there's been sin scandal and failure.

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So I still don't know which group.

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Has the right doctrine that basically prevents anyone from falling

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into sin. I don't know, but according to the YouTube

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video in our last broadcast, we discovered and all you

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have to do is have the right doctrine, and ladies

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and gentlemen, everything is fixed.

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That was crazy to hear. I'm still processing. But we

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need to move the conversation forward.

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Right because not only did we discover in the last

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broadcast that if your doctrine is wrong, you're gonna basically

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fall into sin, but if your doctrine is wrong about

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church membership, well that's one of the doctrines you have

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to have right or you will fall and descend. So

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we're going to take that and we're going to well

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discuss it and move it forward a little bit, and

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hopefully you'll find it to be interesting, all right, that's hopefully.

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I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that it will be.

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That is my hope that not only will it be interesting,

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it'll be somewhat beneficial. And of course, unfortunately it's going

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to be somewhat controversial because while we're going to get

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into something that's going to tick off a lot of

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people within the Christian world because even though it's considered

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the norm, I think it's ridiculous, and we're going to

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talk about it. But before we do that, let me

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go ahead. And I know I've already jumped right in.

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I'm ready to.

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Go, but let me just take a breath, take a minute,

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and say good evening everyone. It is Saturday, November ninth,

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twenty twenty four. It is currently nine thirty nine pm

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Central Time, and I am coming to you live from

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the Theology Central Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas.

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Now I know what I'm supposed to be you doing.

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It's Saturday evening, right, That means tomorrow morning, I'll get dressed,

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get in a car, drive what about twenty miles about

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fifteen to twenty minutes south of this very studio, and

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stand behind a pulpit, and I'm supposed to be We

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never know how things are actually going to work, even

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at church. I don't ever really know how things are

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going to work. I'll be starting and really getting into

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Isaiah chapter forty. Well, we'll kind of go back to

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chapter thirty nine and the move towards forty we'll do

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a lot of review get back to our series on

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Isaiah forty through fifty five, and I'm hoping if I

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can keep myself to it. The first hour is supposed

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to be Romans chapter four, verse sixteen. It's supposed to be, but.

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We will see. I don't know.

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Reality is I probably should just dedicate both hours to Isaiah,

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is what I probably should do, or both hours to

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Romans chapter four, because in either case.

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It's going to be a mess.

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So I don't know. Last week we didn't have anything.

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The week before, a large number of people were out,

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so really you're going to have people walking in Sunday

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that are basically three weeks behind. It's going to be

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I don't know what to do, so I've got to

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make some determination. So that's what I really should be doing.

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I should be focusing on that. But how can I

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just ignore the great secret that we discovered that, Hey,

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ladies and gentlemen, the way to stop sinning is just

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get your doctrine right and then you'll stop sinning. Which

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is kind of ironic that someone would say that, because

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that demonstrates a completely wrong doctrine about.

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The nature of sin.

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That sin is a part of our nature, and right

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doctrine doesn't fix my nature. I mean, the whole thing

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is just maddening. But let me try to put it

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all together and help you all. Right now, we know,

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I believe it was the month of October, a big

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scandal broke right Steve Lawson, a very famous pastor associated

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with Liganaire ministries, associated with Master Seminary. You know, Steve Lawson,

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who has preached at conferences all over the country, very

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much associated with lordships. That it was found out that

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he was engaged in inappropriate relationship with a younger woman.

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There was a lot of details that we did not know,

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and there was a lot of controversy, and I made

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the decision right from the start. I don't really care

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to get into the you know, the gossip, the rumors,

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the scandal, the dirt, and I'm not and everybody else

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can do that. So I said, okay, I'm not going

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to name the pastor. I'm not even going to name him.

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I'm going to take this subject. A man fell into sin. Well, congratulations,

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we all sin So he fell into sin. Well, everyone

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that he was preaching to was already in sin and

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he's already been in sid. So I said, Christianity seems

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incapable of actually dealing with sin in a meaningful way.

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So we started a very lengthy conversation about sin, and

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it led to our current series that we've been doing

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on the Six Secrets of the Christian Life and how

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insane that book is, and we've just been we've just

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been talking about it from all kinds of different perspectives,

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law and gospel, and I thought that was.

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A pretty you know, a pretty good way to deal

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with that.

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I wouldn't have to mention this name, and so I've

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kind of avoided the name until today. And today I

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didn't really mention the name. Well, the video that I

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played mentioned the name, and their whole thing was, hey,

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ladies and gentlemen, Steve Lowson sinned. Nobody could figure out

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why he sinned.

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What happened.

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Well, now we know, because anytime a pastor falls into sin,

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all you have to do is find the wrong doctrine,

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and the wrong doctrine is what led to the sin.

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And it's like just really crazy.

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So we discussed it and we talked about it, and

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then we found out that the wrong doctrine, according to

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the video we saw the wrong doctrine that led Steve

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Lowson to fall into sind the reason that got his

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mind thinking about a younger woman was because his doctrine

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about church was completely messed up. What do we mean

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by that, Well, according to the video, Steve, Now this

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is according to their claim. Now the claim is showing

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up all over the place, all right, So this the

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one video. In fact, I'm gonna be playing audio from

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a second video. This is going all over the place.

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There's articles on the internet about this. I don't know

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if we have any actual confirmation of how true this is.

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But according to the claims, Steve Lawson's fraudulent doctrine that

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led him to fall into sin was that he was

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not a pastor. He was not even a member of

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a church. He basically was paid a paid speaker. Hey,

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come to Trinity, I think it's called Trinity Bible Church,

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and you're just going to preach Sunday after Sunday after Sunday,

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We're just going to pay you. You show up, you preach,

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we pay you, you leave. So he's not the pastor,

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he's not.

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Even a member of the church.

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So he worked with Ligonary Mint Ministries. He worked with

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MacArthur's the seminary. He was basically the weekly speaker at

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this church, but he was not even a church member anywhere,

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wasn't even a pastor. And this raises all kinds of

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questions about the whole you know, scandal, Like, well, so

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then what do you do? Do you hold him to

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a standard of a pastor if he's not really a pastor.

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He's just a preacher, he's just a speaker, he's not

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a member of a church. So can you exercise church discipline?

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He's not even a member of a church. What can

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you actually do? How do we even approach this? So

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we talked about it in the crazy thing that well,

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just because you have right doctrine about church and even

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if you're a member of a church, doesn't stop people

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from sinning. So I mean that already kind of disproves

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the whole argument anyway. But a second video picks up

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this report about Steve Lawson not being a member of

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a church. Again, I don't know what. I don't really

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care to It's not even about Steve Lawson. Let me,

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I want to make sure everyone understands my last broadcast

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was not about Steve Lawson. It was about this crazy

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idea that the reason someone falls unto SND is because

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their doctrine is wrong, because wrong doctrine leads to sin

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and right doctrine leads to good, you know, good morality.

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That whole fraudulent idea, that's what it was about. But

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we had to talk about Steve Lawson because that was

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the context in which that concept was being discussed. Once again,

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what we're getting ready to talk about surrounds the Steve

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Lawson controversy, but it's not really about Steve Lawson. What

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we're going to talk about here you're going to hear

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in just a second, is this clip is going to

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take to Steve Lawson controversy and talk about a broader

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phenomenon in the evangelical world. And I have been yelling

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and screaming about this phenomenon in the evangelical world, but

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in a way different way because everyone seems to condemn it,

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but then they are support the very industry that I

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think props it up and promotes it.

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So I am going to use this.

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To go after the entire industry that I think is problematic.

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So we're going to go through this. Hopefully it's going

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to be beneficial.

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Hopefully this will move the conversation forward a little bit.

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In some ways, I just kind of want to get

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this out, just kind of put these concepts out there,

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and then you know, if we to return to them again,

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say Monday, we can, and we will see, because tomorrow

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my focus needs to be on something else. And what

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I've learned is if you have one, if you have

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something already on your mind as a pastor, you've been

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thinking about it and thinking about it, it's best to

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just go to church and say, hey, this is what

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we're going to talk about, instead of trying to preach

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your sermon, because inevitably, whatever you're thinking about will just

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kind of show up in your sermon, whether it's really

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connected or not. And so a lot of times when

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I'm reviewing sermons, I will say, clearly, this guy had

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something else on his mind even though he was supposed

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to be preaching on this today, because this was the

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text he read. He kind of started and then immediately

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he's all distracted.

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That's what happens.

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So I like to prefer to just get rid of

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it right, let it out, and then when I get

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to church, I can focus on Isaiah forty or Our Romans,

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chapter four, verse sixteen that's the plan, all right, So

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are you ready to do this?

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Here we go.

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Now, the volume here is very typically the volumes are

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very well. Sermons on sermons two point oh tend to

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be recorded at a low volume. I think YouTube videos

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tend to be much louder.

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Not always, but I think.

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Most of the time. So this one is relatively loud.

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So it may be too loud at the beginning, and

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I'll try to pull the volume back after I look

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at my meters and see where it is. So just

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I don't want to blow your ear drums out because

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he comes in talking.

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In fact, I'm going.

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To pull the volume down, then I'll increase it. That

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makes more sense, doesn't it. All right, here we.

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Go, Hello, and thank you for watching this video shocking

231
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new revelations about Steve Lawson, and we're going to be

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talking about the problems of celebrity pastors.

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This is a real issue.

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And before somebody comments, because yes, things are getting worse

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in the Steve Lawson situation, but before somebody watches ten

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seconds of the video and is ready to comment, oh well,

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I don't think you should be talking about his personal

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life and whatever in the details.

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That's not what we're going to be doing.

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So, Yes, things are getting worse in the story, but

241
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it's not what you think.

242
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So here's the headline.

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Okay, so shocking new details. Shocking new details. Again.

244
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I'm not here to talk about the Steve Lowson issue.

245
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But you notice he talked about celebrity pastors. Celebrity pastors.

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I think I think he mentioned it there.

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I hope he did.

248
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I know it's in his title. I'm gonna play that again.

249
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Make sure he mentioned it. If he didn't, I kind

250
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of gave I kind of gave it away. So I'm

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already thinking where to go. Let me play that again.

252
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I hope he mentioned celebrity pastors or I just messed

253
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this all up.

254
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All right, let's listen to that again.

255
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Hello, and thank you for watching this video. Shocking new

256
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revelations about Steve Lawson, and we're going to be talking

257
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about the problems of celebrity pastors.

258
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Okay, good, he mentioned it there. I wasn't jumping ahead

259
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the problem of celebrity pastors.

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So I'm gonna make this very clear.

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All right, whatever he says here about Steve Lawson's secondary

262
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it's not even the issue. The issue is the concept

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of celebrity pastors, and that's a common thing that people

264
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gripe about, and people gripe about. People be like, I'm

265
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so sick and tired of these celebrity pastors. While they're

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sitting there holding a MacArthur Study Bible. They're like, whoa,

267
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you don't like celebrity pastors. You just happen to buy

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a bible with a man's name at the forefront of

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the cover. But you're again celebrity pastors, right, I mean,

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I mean, come on now, hey, hey, I can't stand

271
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these celebrity pastors.

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Hey what are you doing this weekend?

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Oh?

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We're driving about one hundred miles because there's this big

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conference and this person is preaching. This person is preaching.

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Oh how much did you pay for the conference? Well,

277
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I mean it's you know, one hundred dollars to get in.

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But I hate celebrity pastors. So you're going to a

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conference that you paid one hundred dollars to get in

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while you're carrying your MacArthur Study Bible. No, yeah, you're right,

281
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you hate celebrity pastors. You just pretend that pate in

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the very industry that props them up and helps generate

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and create the celebrity itself. That's my issue, all right,

284
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So does the Steve Lawson What does the Steve Lawson

285
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.720
issue have to do with celebrity pastor as well? In

286
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some ways, Steve Lawson was kind of celebrity, right he

287
00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:20.879
preached at conference after Look, if anyone pays money to

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get inside a building to hear you preach, I don't

289
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care what you say you're a celebrity pastor, I don't care.

290
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I don't care.

291
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If you're MacArthur, I don't care. If you're a RC Sproull,

292
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I don't care. If people pay money to get into

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a building to hear you preach the word of God,

294
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you are a celebrity. Because either one, you have to

295
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.879
admit that you're charging people for the preaching of the

296
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Word of God. So you've turned the Bible into a

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product which you're selling. You've turned it into a commodity

298
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which you're selling. Which that seems utterly evil, that you've

299
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taken the word of God and you're selling, you're selling

300
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the preaching of it, so people have to pay money

301
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to hear it.

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That seems majorlyroblematic.

303
00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:02.000
And if said, well, no, no, no, no, they're not

304
00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.679
paying for the preaching of God's word. Then they're paying

305
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:06.919
for the celebrities who are inside preaching.

306
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It's one of the other.

307
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They're either paying for the word or they're paying for

308
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:11.720
the celebrity.

309
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Which is it?

310
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Well, how come most pastors couldn't hold a conference and

311
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have people pay money to get in because they don't

312
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have the celebrity. But once you get a big enough name,

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you can charge one hundred dollars and people will pay

314
00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:28.919
money to get in to see the whole industry thing

315
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is just broken.

316
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So let's see where he takes this. What is this

317
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shocking news?

318
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I'm going to back this up, put it all back

319
00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:36.879
in its full context.

320
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.639
Here we go, hello, and thank you for watching this video.

321
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:46.679
Shocking new revelations about Steve Lawson, and we're going to

322
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.960
be talking about the problems of celebrity pastors.

323
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:51.480
This is a real issue.

324
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.639
And before somebody comments, because yes, things are getting worse

325
00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:01.159
in the Steve Lawson situation, But before somebody ten seconds

326
00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:03.399
of the video and is ready to comment, oh, well,

327
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.360
I don't think you should be talking about his personal

328
00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.519
life and whatever in the details. That's not what we're

329
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.720
going to be doing. So, yes, things are getting worse

330
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.679
in the story. But it's not what you think. So

331
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:21.000
here's the headline from Protestia. Steve Lawson was not a pastor.

332
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.279
He was not even the pastor of Trinity Bible Church.

333
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Matter of fact, he wasn't even a member. He wasn't

334
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even an elder. Yeah, this is shocking and the fact

335
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.240
that Steve Lawson, no one seems to be holding him

336
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accountable because there was no accountability.

337
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That was the situation going in.

338
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.879
He was just the guest preacher. He was the celebrity

339
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:49.120
guest preacher. Only he was the guest preacher every single week.

340
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.200
Okay, So this raises the question that while he's treated

341
00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.519
as a celebrity, right, I mean, he's paid money to

342
00:16:57.559 --> 00:16:59.720
come and speak, and he just is paid week after

343
00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.279
week after week after week, and people came and why

344
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were they coming to the church. They were coming for

345
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.720
Steve Lawson. They were coming for the celebrity. Why did

346
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.480
many people go to MacArthur's church for the celebrity? I mean,

347
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.119
I mean, let's just be on, why did people pay

348
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.359
to go to the Shepherd's conference?

349
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Why did people go to the conferences?

350
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:15.200
Here?

351
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:15.519
R C.

352
00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.559
Sprull, you just name the person, name the conference. I mean,

353
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.759
how many times do I get the emails? I mean

354
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.240
I think I think some people started realizing and stop

355
00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:26.559
sending me the emails. I think some of the conferences

356
00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.160
realize stop sending me the emails because they do so,

357
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.880
and I bring them here, turn on the microphone and go, hey,

358
00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.839
you want to hear so and so preach. It will

359
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.400
only cost you one hundred and seventy nine dollars. And

360
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.599
that's if you sign up early. If you don't, you're

361
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.039
gonna have to pay two hundred and.

362
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:45.359
Fifty right, And I I'm not nice about it because to.

363
00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:48.640
Me, it's it's a crime. What are you paying for

364
00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.079
the Bible? Are you paying for the preaching of the Bible?

365
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.799
Are you paying for the celebrity? Well, and usually these

366
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are conferences, the ones I go after are the very

367
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conservative conferences that you know the evangelical celebrity world. Oh no,

368
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:09.000
you you condemn their celebrity while you celebrate your celebrity.

369
00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.839
So just stop it, just stop it. So there is

370
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.839
a problem here. There is a problem here. Now. Now

371
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.839
it would be interesting to note I think many now

372
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:25.359
this I could be wrong here. Now I always tell

373
00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.440
people to do this, but you should do this tomorrow

374
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.200
at church. You should walk around with a clipboard and

375
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.440
I would ask people, Hey, if you if you went

376
00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:36.319
to a church and the person who preaches every Sunday,

377
00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.000
you find out that he's not actually a pastor, he's

378
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:42.279
not actually a member of the church's he's not an elder,

379
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.920
he's not a deacon. We just pay him to come

380
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.920
preach week after week after week, you know, year after

381
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:48.759
year after year.

382
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Would that be a problem. I would be curious. How

383
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.359
many people do you like? I don't care.

384
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.119
As long as someone's standing up there to preach, I

385
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.359
don't really care. You know, we got to pay somebody

386
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.039
or either paying a pastor a salary or we're paying

387
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:02.279
this person to preach each week.

388
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:04.240
What difference does it make?

389
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:06.640
Is it a difference in would they They may be

390
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.440
more worried about how much it costs versus they may go, well,

391
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:11.880
we could actually possibly save money here, who knows, or

392
00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.640
we may have to pay more. It may come down

393
00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.599
to economics for them. Now, some people may care.

394
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:18.039
I don't know.

395
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.039
It would be interesting to know how many people actually care,

396
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.960
because why, I mean, if this is true, if this

397
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.319
claim is true, that he was not even a member

398
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.400
of the church. Did no one there know? Did everyone

399
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.200
just assume that he was did the leadership in the

400
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.599
church is like, hey, guys, we don't actually have a pastor.

401
00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.599
We just pay this guy to do the work. The

402
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:39.640
rest of us will do the work as a pastor.

403
00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.279
He's the guy that just comes in to preach. I mean,

404
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.799
And did no one think that this was a problem?

405
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:46.960
Did?

406
00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.640
I mean? Did no one question this?

407
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.000
And it does raise the question about church membership itself, right,

408
00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.759
So let's see what they have to say.

409
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.519
So he would ride in on his chariot, preach, get paid,

410
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.039
and then immediately leave because he just can't, you know.

411
00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.279
And the story says he needed to guard his time.

412
00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:14.880
And what it looks like is he just didn't want

413
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:16.079
to have to talk to people.

414
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:16.799
He didn't want to.

415
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:19.519
Have to rub shoulders with the hoy PELOI you know,

416
00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.400
he just couldn't be bothered with that. So this is bad.

417
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.759
This story actually makes me angry. And I don't get

418
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:28.960
too riled up. We talked about a lot of different

419
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:33.000
things here, but this makes me mad. And it's the

420
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.000
celebrity culture, you know, the celebrity preachers. It's like with

421
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.000
the TGC conference, Why are people going to hear celebrity pastors,

422
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.559
and there's a lot of money to be made.

423
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:49.079
So if you whoa, that's one of the first times

424
00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:50.480
I've heard someone.

425
00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.039
Else go after it.

426
00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.200
Why do people go to these conferences to hear a

427
00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:58.359
celebrity and there's a lot of money to be made,

428
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.839
And typically, and I condemn a conference, I almost immediately

429
00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.559
get some email people defending it.

430
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:06.920
That is crap.

431
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:10.720
That my goodness, that is great to hear. That is

432
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.200
great to hear someone else's because it's it's just a business.

433
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.640
You just reach enough celebrity status and then you get

434
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.680
to go to the conference circuit and you get paid money.

435
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.880
And what are people paying for they? I mean, like

436
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:26.559
I said, well they preach better. Give me a break,

437
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.359
Just give me. I'm so sick of that. I can

438
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.680
review a million sermons from any conference and then preaching

439
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:36.240
give me so many times it's like no, it's now

440
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:40.400
they they know all of the secrets of communication, how

441
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:45.200
they communicate, how they structure their sermon, right, they know

442
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.559
all of the communication tricks.

443
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:48.720
But they're preaching is no.

444
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.920
Give me a break. It's somehow better than everyone else's,

445
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.599
so so therefore they're worth paying one hundred dollars to

446
00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:59.640
hear that stuff drives me crazy. Really, that really does

447
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.519
just that undermines like, well, that preacher doesn't nobody pays

448
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.440
to hear him, so he's not a good as good

449
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.559
a preacher as that person because that person gets paid,

450
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.960
you know, money for people. We base the quality of

451
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:17.359
preaching on how much money people pay to hear it

452
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:17.640
is that?

453
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.680
Is that the perception?

454
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.119
So maybe you know, maybe if I start charging for

455
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.200
all of my sermons, then then is that is that

456
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.720
the way to the whole thing just is mess up?

457
00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.200
But I agree, it's a business. It's an it's the

458
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:34.279
Christian conference industrial complex, and that is the heart of

459
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:39.119
the the celebrity pastor culture. And unless we go after

460
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:44.440
the conference complex industrial complex, unless you burn that system

461
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.960
to the ground, you're going to continue to promote celebrity.

462
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:49.599
I mean, what are you saying when this man people

463
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.440
pay one hundred dollars to get into a conference to

464
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:52.359
hear this man preach.

465
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.279
You are just advertising that.

466
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:58.200
This man is somehow above all of the rest of

467
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:01.039
the pastors in that town that nobody pays to hear

468
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.559
They just walk into church on Sunday. Well, pastor you're great,

469
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.160
But that guy people pay one hundred dollars to get.

470
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:07.680
In to hear him.

471
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.240
I mean, it's about money, It's the whole thing. Should

472
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.039
just it should drive me crazy. So in this particular case,

473
00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:19.599
to bring it back to Lawson, he just got paid

474
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:23.039
money to show up, preach and leave, paid money, show up.

475
00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.160
He wasn't really a preacher. He was just a speaker

476
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.480
who got paid to deliver a message.

477
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:32.680
And he did it well enough that people kept coming

478
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.279
and kept coming, and they listened to him online, listen

479
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:37.079
to him here, and listened to him there, and paid

480
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.880
money and paid money and paid money and paid money

481
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:47.480
and paid money. So let's let's see what else they

482
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:48.079
have to say here.

483
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.359
You can just get some celebrity to come in and

484
00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:54.519
you hang out of your church for an hour and

485
00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:56.559
a half and preach and then he can leave. And yeah,

486
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.559
this this really burns me up. So let's read the

487
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:04.359
article again. This is from Protestia. Six weeks have passed

488
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.519
since Trinity Bible Church revealed that Steve Lawson was disqualified

489
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.440
from ministry activities for having an inappropriate relationship with a woman.

490
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:15.160
Who is not his wife.

491
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.000
And of course she was much younger and all the

492
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:20.759
rest lasted for five years. And again, even if I

493
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.359
said this in a previous video, even if details came out,

494
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:29.119
I'm not interested in covering the tabloid type details. But

495
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.799
this is a massive issue. It exposes a massive issue

496
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.599
within evangelical Christianity that this type of situation could even

497
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.240
happen and people were okay with it.

498
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:42.799
And let's continue reading.

499
00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:47.720
So new rapport operas insight into why the whole situation has.

500
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:49.839
Been so strange in Murky.

501
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:55.599
According to pastors Derek Brown and Cliff mccannis of Creekside

502
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.680
Bible Church in California, on an episode of their podcast,

503
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.680
Quote with All Wisdom, using information that had been quote

504
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.400
verified by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

505
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:07.880
Steve Lawson, though he.

506
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.680
Previously served as a pastor of previous churches, he was

507
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.759
neither a pastor, nor an elder and not even a member,

508
00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:21.279
nor was he even a member at Trinity Bible Church. Yes,

509
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:23.960
that's right, he was not a pastor. He was not

510
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.119
an elder at Trinity Bible Church, which we said. He

511
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.359
was not the pastor or lead pastor of that church,

512
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.079
but he wasn't even.

513
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:34.799
A member of the church.

514
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:37.519
How do you know this because and here's a little

515
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:42.200
picture from their website where they basically had admitted this

516
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.880
this was an open secret. But check this out. Notice

517
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:53.000
his title. Okay, so it's not like this was a secret.

518
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.680
The article continues, I've been trying to get a hold

519
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.160
of Trinity Bible Church. So it's these guys talking on

520
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.119
their podcast who revealed this. They said, We've been trying

521
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.599
to get a hold of Trinity Bible Church in Texas

522
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.160
for several weeks, and I finally got a hold of

523
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.680
someone that was willing to talk to me, who actually

524
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.440
worked at the church, and they verified everything that we said.

525
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:16.119
They were reluctant to talk to me, and they were

526
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.079
reluctant to tell me, but they agreed. He was not

527
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.680
an elder, he was not a pastor, he was not

528
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:24.960
the lead pastor. They kind of waffled when I said,

529
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.759
was he even a member? And they didn't want to

530
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:31.119
tell me, but it was pretty obvious Steve Lawson wasn't

531
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.759
even a member at this church.

532
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.400
Now, their audio kind of cut out there. I think

533
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:43.799
what they were showing is on the article there's a

534
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:47.279
picture listing all the staff members, right, and I think

535
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.079
the other people are like elder, pastor, and I think

536
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.079
they just have him listed as like teacher. I can't

537
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.759
remember how it's listed, but he's not listed as an elder,

538
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.559
he's not listed as a pastor. He's not listed anywhere

539
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.000
like that. So in a sense, it was kind of

540
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.359
an open secret. It was right there, but nobody ever really,

541
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:05.680
I guess nobody ever really caught on or ever or

542
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:06.759
you know, anybody who went.

543
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:07.039
To the well.

544
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:10.440
Typically when people go to a website like that, unless

545
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.759
they're considering joining the church, they're probably just looking for

546
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.759
the sermons of a specific speaker, in this particular case,

547
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:19.480
Steve Lawson. So I doubt they were looking around, but

548
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:21.640
I guess it was kind of right there in the open.

549
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.559
But no one ever stopped and go, well, wait a minute,

550
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:25.079
what does that mean. I think you would just look

551
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.200
at it and probably not even register in your mind.

552
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.319
Will wait a minute, what is this person's actual position?

553
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:35.839
So it appears he had no connection to any of this. Now,

554
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:38.400
again to me, this has nothing to do with the

555
00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:41.119
scandal per se. Everyone wants to say, well, see this

556
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:42.000
is the reason with the scan.

557
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.880
Let's just make it. Let's just stop that.

558
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.319
Okay, let me make it very A lot of people like, well,

559
00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.720
see if he was in this situation or this situation,

560
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.680
there wouldn't be a scandal, there wouldn't be a fall.

561
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.680
Let me make it very clear. Pastors have sinned and

562
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:59.279
fallen into sin, and denominational churches and independent churches they have.

563
00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:03.480
They have fallen in churches that are congregational led pastor led.

564
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.240
They have fallen in churches that have elder rule. It

565
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:12.839
doesn't matter the structure, it doesn't matter the quote unquote accountability.

566
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:17.039
People sin because sin arises from within us. It's a

567
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.319
part of our sinful nature.

568
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:19.319
It's what we do.

569
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:21.799
It comes from there, and we always think that we

570
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:24.319
can put these structures in place that will stop it.

571
00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:26.079
You can't stop.

572
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.839
Is what is inevitably going to happen, which is sin

573
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:31.279
of some case.

574
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:32.799
Now you may be able to say, well you.

575
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.279
Could protect from this particular sin or this particular sin,

576
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:39.119
that's a different story. Hey, hey, we know you're going

577
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.680
to sin, but these are the sins we have to stop.

578
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.480
So here are our thirty seven step program to ensure

579
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.319
you don't commit that sin.

580
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:49.599
Now, that's at least that's being.

581
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:54.200
Honest, because even if you stop this particular sin. Every

582
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:57.519
pastor is in sin because God's standard is perfection. No

583
00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:59.880
one is perfect. Therefore we're in a perpetual state of

584
00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:01.599
falling short of that perfection.

585
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.119
So we are all in sin.

586
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:04.920
I mean, I don't know why that's so difficult for

587
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.599
Christians to admit, but particular sin. So everyone's focusing on

588
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.920
why he wasn't even a member. Yeah, now they want

589
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:14.200
to use it to talk now. Some want to use

590
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.519
this to say this is the reason he fell.

591
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:17.599
That's ridiculous.

592
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.480
Others want to use this to say this is evidence

593
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.759
of celebrity culture, and I think it is. I think

594
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:28.400
we have reached a celebrity culture. You know, peak right,

595
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:33.920
We've reached We've reached mass destruction when people now the

596
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.599
person who I guess is the lead speaker at their

597
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.000
church is not even a member of the church. He

598
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:42.720
just gets paid each week to show up. Now, in

599
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.599
some ways, I don't know how shocking that is.

600
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:45.200
Right.

601
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.160
We see, if I leave my house in about five minutes,

602
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.640
get on Highway eighty three eighty four head south, maybe

603
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:55.359
maybe five minutes down the road. I think it's about

604
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:57.599
five minutes. On the left hand side of the highway

605
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:01.880
as River of Life River of Life Church. It's a

606
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.400
big kind of ecumenical evangelical type church, kind of you know,

607
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.799
one of those more modernized evangelical kinds of churches has

608
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.319
the big praise band. Well, I used to know the

609
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.400
drummer of their praise band. In fact, I worked with

610
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:20.480
the drummer. He was an atheist. He got paid I

611
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.880
think it was three hundred dollars every Sunday, may have

612
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.240
been three fifty. I don't remember the exact dollar amount

613
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:26.920
to play the drums and their praise band.

614
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:28.839
And he was an atheist.

615
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:31.359
And I worked with him until he got kicked out

616
00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:37.119
of the military for drug use. An atheistic drug user

617
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.759
was the drummer for their praise band because they just

618
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.720
paid him money to play the drums because he was

619
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:45.680
really really really really really really really really good drummer.

620
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:50.440
He was a drummer for lots of country artist and

621
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:52.839
he would go to Austin on the weekends sometimes to

622
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.759
do studio work for a lot of different bands and artists,

623
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:59.160
and oh he would make sure he was back on

624
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.799
Sunday make a good three hundred dollars for like an

625
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:07.799
hour of work playing in the praise band. So it's

626
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.079
in a sense, it's was already happening there, right. And

627
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.160
then in some cases I'm not shocked by this because

628
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:15.640
the first time I became shocked by some of this

629
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.240
is in my early I mean, i'd been a saved

630
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:21.720
for a few years and I was, you know, learning

631
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.200
about the Christian music industry at the time, and a

632
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.839
lot of revelations were coming out. There was somewhat shocking,

633
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.759
and I found out over and over and over that

634
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.720
these Christian musicians they didn't go to church, They're not

635
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.200
even members of a church nothing, but they were utilizing

636
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.759
the church. They were playing at church conferences and going

637
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:42.799
to youth camps and youth rallies. They needed the church

638
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:45.480
to further their career. But many of them were not

639
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:47.720
a member of a church, didn't go to church. And

640
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.160
You're like, wait a minute, how can these Christian artists

641
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.839
and a sense use the church in order to further

642
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:54.960
their career but they're not part of one.

643
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:56.200
What is that all about?

644
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.079
Right, So in this particular case, it's the same thing.

645
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.759
So it happened to Christian music. It happened even in church.

646
00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:05.200
I know at least one case where it happens even

647
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:09.400
in a church praise band. So I guess now you

648
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.480
know there's at least one pastor.

649
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.039
We know who. He shows up eat Sunday, he got

650
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.920
paid and he left.

651
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.799
It appears according again we need verification for all of this,

652
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:19.599
that he.

653
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.440
Wasn't even a member. Now does that bother? Does it

654
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.559
not bother you? But again you can argue that.

655
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:31.759
But is that not the pinnacle the peak of celebrity

656
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:34.319
pastor in that case, celebrity speaker.

657
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.720
Now listen, if Steve Lawson was invited to speak once

658
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.960
in a while, you know, every six months, they have

659
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.480
a guest speaker come in, no problem. But for that

660
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:50.000
kind of arrangement just to have him come in for

661
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.920
an hour or two a week and he's not even

662
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.559
he's not even a member there, but he's preaching every

663
00:32:56.599 --> 00:32:59.640
single week. And that's the arrangement to have a celebrity.

664
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:03.680
What's the problem with that, Well, there's no accountability, right,

665
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:08.759
You're setting up the situation to blow up in your face.

666
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:13.519
No accountability. He has no real responsibility with the people.

667
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.880
He doesn't even know the people that he's speaking to

668
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000
week after week. Again, if he was coming in to

669
00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:22.160
speak once a year or something, then fine. But if

670
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.240
you're going to be if you're going to act as

671
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:26.680
the pastor and preach every single week. That's what the

672
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:31.240
pastor's job is. You need to know the flock. But anyway,

673
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.279
this is just unbelievable. The article continues. They that is

674
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:41.200
the church, Trinity Bible. They also agreed and acknowledged that,

675
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:44.839
as far as they know, the elders at their church

676
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:48.799
are not the ones managing the Matthew eighteen process with

677
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:55.200
Steve Lawson. They are not disciplining him because they can't. Okay,

678
00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:00.559
So Trinity Bible Church seems to have admitted that they

679
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.319
are not They are actually not in the process of

680
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.440
disciplining Steve Lawson because they can't because he's not even

681
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.000
a member of our church. We can't discipline a non member.

682
00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:17.360
Absolutely outrageous, Okay, let's continue. Notably, the original announcement from

683
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.079
Trinity reads quote, the elders at Trinity Bible Church of

684
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:27.119
Dallas regretfully announced that, effective immediately, Stephen J. Lawson has

685
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:32.440
been removed indefinitely from all ministry activities at Trinity Bible

686
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:37.119
Church of Dallas. Noticed that while he was removed indefinitely

687
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.119
from all ministry activities, he was not removed from a position.

688
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:46.400
He was removed from all ministry activities instead, so he

689
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.039
wasn't removed from being an elder or a pastor. So

690
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:55.119
they say, what was Lawson if he wasn't their pastor

691
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:01.039
or elder. He was the regular guest preacher, otherwise known

692
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:04.840
as the lead preacher. And you saw that on the website,

693
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.719
receiving a dispensation from the elders to preach the sermon

694
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.039
and then depart once the message was done. What we

695
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.840
know now is Steve Lawson didn't want to be a pastor.

696
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.280
He was a pastor at two previous churches and it

697
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.800
didn't go well at either place. There was division, there

698
00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:28.760
were church splits. It's kind of an ugly history. And

699
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.079
then he got to a point and he said, I

700
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:35.920
don't want to be a pastor, and they honored his wishes. Well,

701
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.119
if he didn't want to be a pastor, he shouldn't

702
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.559
be preaching, that's my opinion, because what are the qualifications. See,

703
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.159
they're blending it all together. He's acting as if he's

704
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:51.039
the pastor, but he's not the pastor. So I know

705
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.159
some people might disagree and they say, oh, this is

706
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:56.559
a fine situation. If a church wants to outsource the

707
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.920
preaching on Sunday morning to some celebrity or somebody who's

708
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:02.239
not even a member. They can do that and he

709
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.639
can just you know, whisk him in and out. And

710
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.039
that it's not right. I don't care what anyone says.

711
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:08.639
That ain't right.

712
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:10.719
That's not what we see in the Bible. That is

713
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.440
not that is not the biblical model. So it says

714
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:18.639
they honored his wishes and he was just a teacher.

715
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:23.599
You just note at that point, I don't know how

716
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:25.800
you hold for Timothy three against him.

717
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.039
So they they, they set it all up.

718
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.119
I'll play just a little bit more here in a second,

719
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.360
because I want to just get into a few more things.

720
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.119
But I want I want you to just show what

721
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:35.519
I want you to take from all of this. I

722
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:37.519
know we've talked about a lot of things. It's just

723
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:39.800
take that this is really the pinnacle. This is the

724
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:45.079
tip of the celebrity pastor the whole phenomenon. Right now,

725
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:49.679
someone can just get paid a weekly fee to show up,

726
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.480
preach and leave and have no connection, no affiliation, no

727
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:58.239
membership of any local church, and not even as a pastor.

728
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:02.320
So they're not they say no accountability. Again, accountability does

729
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.800
not stop sin. Okay, it can may stop certain sins

730
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:06.760
if you have enough safeguards that you know nobody has

731
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.519
an opportunity. I guess you could prevent some, but you're

732
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:11.400
still gonna be sinning in some way, shape or form.

733
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:16.639
But the issue becomes to me that it's not so

734
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:20.920
much about accountability or not accountability. The issue becomes, Okay, well,

735
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:26.280
now what do you do? Like, he's just a speaker

736
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.280
that you paid money to come in. He's not associated

737
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.840
with your church other than he's your speaker. He's not

738
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.239
a member. He's not unless you have a contract, a

739
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.239
contract that he signed. He's signed a If there's no contract,

740
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:42.079
who just like he shows up and then we give

741
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:44.840
him a certain amount and the church just pays a

742
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.280
certain amount for the speaker. There's no contractual obligation. He

743
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:51.639
hasn't signed a contract. Then really there's no what do

744
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:53.679
you I don't even know what you do there? Like,

745
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:55.719
I don't even know how you even handle that. It

746
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.480
raises a bunch of questions. So everyone else can handle that,

747
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.000
but it's it's the celebrity thing. And we're going to

748
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.000
go through that really quick here and just man I'm

749
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:06.679
going to go through a little bit of church history

750
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.440
about well some of this stuff.

751
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:14.559
Was a guest teacher at all these places, guest teacher

752
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.440
at Liganier and Trinity Bible Church.

753
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:19.880
The revelation tracks.

754
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:23.039
With what several members of Trinity Bible Church have reported

755
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:26.440
to us, saying that loss and scandalous affair open their

756
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:30.880
eyes to how problematic and challenging some of his behavior was,

757
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:35.960
you think, which was never really questioned or considered before,

758
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:39.880
but now is glaring in the light of this new exposure.

759
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.440
Members report that he would show up on Sundays, head

760
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:48.119
straight to the back, preach the sermon, and then leave

761
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:52.920
immediately after, rarely if ever, sticking around to shake hands

762
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.480
or spend time talking to these you know lowly uh,

763
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:59.239
you know church people like I don't even want to

764
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.199
have to deal with these people. Just ride in and

765
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:03.480
ride out and get paid.

766
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:05.320
And that's it. That's what they're saying.

767
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:10.599
And what's the excuse Steve Lawson had to quote unquote

768
00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:12.679
guard his time?

769
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:14.719
Whose fault is this?

770
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:19.000
Obviously the scandal the affair, The affair is Steve Lawson's

771
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.559
fault and the woman obviously, But you know, the elders

772
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:27.440
of the church they allowed for this situation. If the

773
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.559
guy doesn't want to be a pastor, if he doesn't

774
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:33.000
want to spend any time with God's people, he has

775
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:39.039
no business teaching God's people. Okay, some exceptions, and this again,

776
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:42.599
this is the whole problem with celebrity Christianity. You know,

777
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.559
the celebrity pastors. They're completely inaccessible and many of them

778
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:52.320
are unaccountable. So this has happened with This may not

779
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.440
happen with Steve Lawson because in the Reformed world they're

780
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:59.360
much more strict. But there's a long list of celebrity

781
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.119
preachers the get busted, you know, in an affair, embezzling money.

782
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:05.800
You know, they wait six months.

783
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.639
Or a year until things, you know, kind of die down,

784
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.719
and then they're right back at it. Why Because there's

785
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:15.840
no accountability. There's a celebrity, they will always have a following.

786
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:19.159
We see that with Hillsong that's starting up again, you know,

787
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:21.840
Karl Lentz and Brian Houston and a lot of these

788
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:25.039
charismatic preachers. You know, there's no accountability that just come

789
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.920
back and start it all over again, start the scam

790
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:29.719
all over again.

791
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:34.719
I love the fact they say there's no accountability. I love.

792
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:37.360
Okay, So exactly what kind of system would you want

793
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:38.360
to have accountability?

794
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.559
Exactly? Let me explain.

795
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.440
I would like you to explain to me what's the

796
00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:47.079
system that would mean? There's only like one denomination that

797
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:54.719
controls everything, so you don't want any independent churches. Nobody

798
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.840
can start a church. Well, what happens when there's fights

799
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:01.119
and a denomination and people split from that denomination? Well,

800
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.400
wait a minute, where's the accountability? You can have a denomination.

801
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:06.119
People split from denominations all the time.

802
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:07.400
A lot of times we celebrate it.

803
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.559
Going those are the Conservatives fighting and they well wait

804
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:13.800
a minute, wait a minute, where's the accountability? The denomination

805
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:16.719
couldn't hold them accountability because they just pulled away and split.

806
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.519
So then they go form another group. So then you

807
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:22.440
got to be who are you accountable to? Which group?

808
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.320
The original group or the new group? And then those

809
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.760
groups then people may leave those groups then go start

810
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:31.239
another group. So where's the any accountability? You say, Well,

811
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:34.519
if they were in a denomination, the denomination wouldn't.

812
00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:34.639
Let them back.

813
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:37.639
Well, they can go start another denomination, they start another church,

814
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:40.000
they can go start another movement, they can go start anything.

815
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.559
There's no, unless you go back to like there's one church. Okay,

816
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:48.280
there's one church and that's it. Every other church is

817
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:51.480
not recognized. There's only one. Well it sounds like the

818
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:54.559
Roman Catholic system. But while we celebrate the guy who

819
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:57.519
broke away, well he got removed and then well guess

820
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:01.000
what an entire group no ultimately come to know as

821
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.840
the Lutherans started breaking away from that group, and then

822
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:07.199
people broke away from Lutherans to start their group, and

823
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.199
then people broke away from them to start their group,

824
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:11.840
and then people broke away from them, and then people

825
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.880
broke away and then them, and then them, and then

826
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:14.840
them and then and.

827
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:15.840
Where does it ever stop?

828
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.400
So what do you mean accountability? Well, these guys just

829
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.519
come back. How are you going to hold them accountable?

830
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.360
Tomorrow?

831
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.000
Someone could start at church tomorrow, someone could break away

832
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.199
from I mean, look at what happened to the Methodists.

833
00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:28.000
I mean how many different groups have emerged from that.

834
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:30.639
I can't even keep up all the different Presbyterian groups,

835
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:33.159
all the different Baptist group. I mean, it just goes

836
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:34.639
on and on and on and on. So how do

837
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:36.760
you I don't even know what that means? We need

838
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:42.079
accountability accountability. How but you can deal with the rest

839
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:44.239
of that issue. So let's talk a little bit about

840
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:47.400
celebrity pastors. And again I'm going to first turn my

841
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:52.400
attention to the whole conference issue. All Right, people paying

842
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.840
money to hear the word of God preached.

843
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:54.199
All Right.

844
00:42:54.679 --> 00:43:00.000
The conference industry, with its tickets, VIP access, and large venues,

845
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:03.519
can indeed fuel a culture where certain pastors or speakers

846
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:09.239
are elevated to celebrity status. The setup often mirrors the

847
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:12.880
dynamics of fame, making the preacher seem more like figures

848
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:16.480
to admire from a distance than shepherds to connect with personally.

849
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:19.159
It could be argued that this approach blurs the line

850
00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:22.800
between faith driven teaching and entertainment, feeding into the very

851
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.800
issues often criticized for and the celebrity pastor phenomenon. And

852
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.280
that's exactly what happens. Have you ever been to these conferences?

853
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:33.000
If lucky, the only thing you get to do is

854
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.239
stand in line with other people.

855
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:35.440
Is they run up there and.

856
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.440
Say, sign my Bible, take a selfie, selfie with me.

857
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:43.199
I mean, it's the same nonsense. It's the same nonsense

858
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:44.360
the first time.

859
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.119
And I've talked about this that I was ever really

860
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.719
really kind of confronted with this is I was going

861
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:51.840
that evening, I was going to go to a Christian

862
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.199
contemporary Christian music concert, right, and I think the name

863
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.599
of the band was Mortal, the kind of an industrial

864
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:02.159
nineties sound, right, kind of an industrial rock kind of sound.

865
00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:04.920
And I went to the bookstore where they were going

866
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:06.440
to do a signing, right, they were going to do

867
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.920
kind of a signing, and they didn't really want to

868
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:11.480
be there. Obviously it became my parents. They didn't really

869
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:13.360
want to be there, and they didn't really do a

870
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:15.239
signing like you typically would do, because you've ever been

871
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:17.320
to one of these signings at a Christian bookstore, they

872
00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:19.320
have a table set up, everybody waits in line, you

873
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.880
walk up, you can sign a photograph of them, or

874
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.239
you can have them sign your album, you can take

875
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.159
a selfie with them, and then you got to move on.

876
00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.679
You move on, just like they do in the secular world. Well,

877
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.119
when I walked into the store, there was no line,

878
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:33.440
there was no table. I was kind of like, what's

879
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:35.599
going on? And the guys from the band were just

880
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:40.599
walking around the bookstore looking around, and I'm like, what's

881
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:43.320
going on here? So I kind of walked up and

882
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.360
he was like, Hey, nice to meet you. But man,

883
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:48.440
we don't do the whole autograph thing. We don't sign autographs.

884
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:49.960
We don't do that, but hey would love to talk

885
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000
to you. So we sat there and talked. He talked

886
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.920
about the books he likes to read and different theological

887
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.480
issues and I'm like, well, why don't you do the

888
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.960
signing autographs. He's like, well, if I'm in a Christian

889
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.679
band and this is ministry, should ministers be signing autographs?

890
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.800
Should we be elevating ourselves? Are we supposed to point

891
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:10.480
you to Christ not to ourselves?

892
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:13.480
And was like, whoa, leave it.

893
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:15.840
Leave it to a Christian rock band to have better

894
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:19.639
theology than many conservative churches who would condemn that rock

895
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:21.199
band to the eighteenth level.

896
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.000
Of hell because our music is demonic.

897
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.039
Okay, So I'm like, whoa, But you see that all

898
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:28.199
the time in these conferences. You can't get to the

899
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:32.599
people unless you have a VIP access and everyone's just there.

900
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:35.280
To sign my Bible, sign this, let me take a selfie.

901
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:37.199
And it's like, what is happening right now?

902
00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:43.320
And well, litle, that literally fuels the problem that everyone condemns.

903
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:49.519
If people are paying to attend these conferences. It implies

904
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.320
that the preaching of God's word is something well, like

905
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.719
a commodity. It's been turned into a commodity. It's something

906
00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.840
they're purchasing, like any other product or event. It shifts

907
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.679
the focus from the message to the messenger, suggesting that

908
00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:04.159
people might be drawn as much, if not more, to

909
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:07.800
the personalities and reputations of the speakers than to the

910
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:11.239
word being preached. This not only turns preaching into a product,

911
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:14.760
but it also reinforces the celebrity status of pastors, placing

912
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.760
them in a spotlight that is ironically often at odds

913
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.760
with humility and service oriented nature of the pastoral role.

914
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:23.599
So there's a problem.

915
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:31.280
The conference industrial complex gives rise to the celebrity pastor.

916
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:35.719
Everyone condemns the celebrity pastor while supporting the very industry

917
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:38.159
that promotes it. And they and it's so weird that

918
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.400
they can't see it. Oh, I'm sick of these celebrity pastors.

919
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.639
And then they do all the things that are part

920
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:44.840
of that.

921
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:47.280
Idea.

922
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:49.719
So where what is the origin of people starting to

923
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:53.400
be charged to hear the Bible preach? So I had

924
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:56.440
to trace the origin, and what I found is. Tracing

925
00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:00.280
the exact origin of charging for access to preaching can

926
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.599
be sometimes complex, but there are some key historical shifts

927
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.320
that help explain maybe how this developed. First, we have

928
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:13.000
the Mid Evil and Renaissance period. The Mid Evil and

929
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:17.639
Renaissance period, the concept of paying for religious services was

930
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:23.000
not new. During the Middle Ages, people often paid for indulgences.

931
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:28.840
Remember that we just passed October thirty, First Reformation Day, right,

932
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:34.760
paid for indulgences or to support your People often paid

933
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:38.719
for indulgences or to support churches with sometimes indirectly funded

934
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.800
preaching events. However, access to preaching itself was generally free,

935
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.679
as sermons were often public and considered a core duty

936
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:48.079
of the church. So they may not have had people

937
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.760
paying necessarily for preaching, but they would pay for different

938
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:51.840
things like indulgence.

939
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:53.960
So yeah, and around it. By the way, the.

940
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.559
Church is always found a way to get money from people.

941
00:47:57.639 --> 00:47:59.599
They've always found a way. They always have to have

942
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.960
a produce. Here's an indulgence that'll get someone out of purgatory.

943
00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:05.599
Or hey, here here is the preaching of.

944
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:06.119
So and so.

945
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.920
Either way, we always find to turn something into a

946
00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:11.880
product package it, market it and sell it.

947
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:14.760
And well, it started in the mid Evil and Renaissance period.

948
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:18.119
If you jump to the Reformation time, the Protestant Reformation

949
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:22.559
emphasized the free proclamation of the word, pushing back against

950
00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:25.920
any notion of paying for grace. Leaders like Martin Luther

951
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:31.199
strongly opposed the idea of monetizing religious teaching. This stance

952
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:35.960
influenced Protestant traditions to value free access to sermons and scriptures.

953
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.400
So at least during the Reformation they were like no, no, no, no,

954
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:42.000
because they were rebelling in a sense against the whole

955
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:46.760
indulgences and that whole system. So then they were like, no, free,

956
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.400
We're not going to monetize this. There's no monetizing the

957
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.119
preaching of God's word. Let's not do that, all right, Okay,

958
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.840
that makes sense, right, I think it does.

959
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:56.320
Well.

960
00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:59.280
Then this leads to then there so we have the

961
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.400
medievil Renaissance period, we have the Reformation influence, and then

962
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:04.639
we jump to the Revivalist movement in the eighteenth and

963
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:08.519
nineteenth century in the US and Europe. Revival movements, led

964
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:11.519
by figures like George Whitfield, John Wesley, and Charles Finley,

965
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:15.880
brought large crowds often and outdoor camp meetings. While preaching

966
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.920
was generally free, costs related to traveling evangelists, traveling evangelists

967
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:25.239
and event logistics sometimes led to offerings or suggested donations,

968
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:29.440
yet entry fees were rare. So it started happening a

969
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:32.039
little bit. But notice what why did it start? You

970
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:38.000
get these pastors, these preachers who become basically celebrities, Finny Whitfield.

971
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:41.519
They become an attraction, and then you hold these big

972
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:46.000
events where people come. So it's no longer a local

973
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:49.679
church thing. It becomes a more public thing. It becomes

974
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.519
a spectacle. It becomes an event. Instead of a Sunday

975
00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:56.159
morning worship service or a Monday night worship service, it

976
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:58.679
becomes an event where you bring all the people together.

977
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:01.039
So now you're going to have to a building. Now

978
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:03.400
you're going to have to have a you know, an area,

979
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.360
and so there's going to be logistics, and there's going

980
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.320
to be money. Now, maybe if it stayed within the

981
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:10.920
local church, none of that would have ever happened, right,

982
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.440
I mean just the thought, just the thought, But you

983
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:16.280
already start seeing a little bit of happening. And then

984
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.079
we get to number four, the rise of evangel even

985
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:24.079
evangelistic if I can read correctly, evangelistic crusades of the

986
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:32.079
twentieth century, Figures like Billy Graham. Okay here, sorry, I'm

987
00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:33.119
having issues right.

988
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:37.360
Now, Yes you are, okay. That was Ai talking to me.

989
00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:41.639
I accidentally pressed Ai and AI started talking to me.

990
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:43.599
I thought Siri was getting ready to talk to me.

991
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.840
I said something that activated all of them at the

992
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.639
same time. I don't know what I said, but all

993
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:50.079
of a sudden activated all of them. Figures like Billy

994
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:53.639
Graham held large scale. Maybe large scale did it?

995
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:54.159
I don't know.

996
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:59.280
Large scale Evangelistic crusades and arenas often free are with volunteering,

997
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:04.360
voluntary donations. The conference model, where tickets were sold for

998
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.599
organized Christian events, began in the mid twentieth century.

999
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.239
We're in the mid twentieth century where.

1000
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:17.280
You start having tickets being sold for organized Christian events.

1001
00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:19.239
I want you to that just shows you it has

1002
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:23.480
no connection to historical Christianity. So when you start selling

1003
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:27.320
tickets for organized Christian events. It began most likely in

1004
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:29.840
the mid twentieth century with the growth of megachurches and

1005
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:35.480
Christian publishing. Conferences expanded to feature numerous speakers, requiring funds

1006
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:42.559
for venues logistics and speaker honorariums, gradually leading to ticketed events.

1007
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:47.159
Then this leads to the modern conference celebrity culture. In

1008
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:51.000
recent decades, as certain pastors and speakers become well known,

1009
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:56.119
churches and organizations began organizing ticketed conferences around these figures.

1010
00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:00.320
This format transformed preaching into a packaged experience, with high

1011
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:05.320
profile speakers, music, and other attractions mirroring. Basically, they were

1012
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:12.039
mirroring secular entertainment and conference industries. So while charging directly

1013
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.239
for access to preaching is relatively modern, it's rooted in

1014
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.920
developments like large scale revivalism and the logistical needs for

1015
00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:22.199
big events. The shift from free to paid access is

1016
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:28.760
tied to the cultural shift towards professionalized, celebrity driven faith

1017
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:33.920
events in recent history. So if everyone wants to get

1018
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:36.039
caught up in all of the scandal of Steve Lawson,

1019
00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:37.840
you can get caught up in all the scandal and

1020
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:40.159
yell and scream and tell them everyone how you don't

1021
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:42.320
sin and everyone else does and he's going to hell,

1022
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.719
and you can do all of that, or you can say, man,

1023
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:47.519
maybe the lesson we're hitting here is well one, the

1024
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:50.159
church doesn't really know how to acknowledge the reality of sin.

1025
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.679
And two wait, he wasn't a member of a church.

1026
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:55.920
He wasn't a pastor. He just got paid to show

1027
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.199
up each week and preach. What in the name of

1028
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:03.199
bubblegum is this? What it is is the celebrity pastor

1029
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:10.159
phenomenon at its pinnacle. But here's the problem. Everyone who

1030
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:16.199
condemns the celebrity pastor almost inevitably participates, and the whole

1031
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:23.360
celebrity pastor industry.

1032
00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:27.599
You do I have as well? I don't have one

1033
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.480
here in front of me. I don't have one here

1034
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:30.920
in front of me.

1035
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:31.800
I don't think I do.

1036
00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:35.760
No, I do not have a MacArthur Study Bible in

1037
00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:37.119
front of me. I don't.

1038
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:38.639
I'm checking.

1039
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:40.599
I think it's probably sitting at church.

1040
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.719
But I I the first one I did not buy.

1041
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.880
The first one I got for free. But I think

1042
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:47.400
the second one I did purchase.

1043
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:48.599
So there we go.

1044
00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.760
I purchased a study Bible with a man's name embolden

1045
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:58.159
up on the cover. That's that's that's the celebrity. When

1046
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.920
you're buying a Bible with a man's name on it.

1047
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:04.280
I was celebrating the celebrity pastor.

1048
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.039
I was. I was, Oh, you want to make it,

1049
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:09.480
I'll make it even worse.

1050
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:13.280
Early on, back in the day, if you wanted MacArthur's sermons,

1051
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:17.360
you had you could subscribe for like a monthly fee

1052
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.159
like we you know, way back before you had all

1053
00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:23.079
these subscription services. You could subscribe to MacArthur. And what

1054
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:25.119
they would do, this is even before the internet. They

1055
00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:29.280
would send you cassettes each week of the sermons. You

1056
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:31.639
paid a monthly fee and you would get the.

1057
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:32.559
Sermons each week.

1058
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.400
Well, there you go. So I was paying for access

1059
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.159
to the preaching of Gost. I participated in it. I

1060
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:40.800
was right there.

1061
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:41.559
I was young.

1062
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:44.159
I didn't understand. I entered into the Christian world and

1063
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:46.239
I just like, oh, there's bookstores, and then there's this,

1064
00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:48.800
and there's this, and I just kind of oh, there's

1065
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:52.039
Christian music, there's concerts, and like, okay, so I just

1066
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.679
I'm leaving all the world and I've just entered into

1067
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:57.719
now the Christian bubble, and it's just its own industry.

1068
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.000
It's got its own celebrities, it's got its own product,

1069
00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:02.719
it's got its own merch and I was right there

1070
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:04.599
in all of it. And it took a long time

1071
00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:06.920
for me to guys start thinking there's something wrong with

1072
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:14.559
all of this. Yes, and I probably I didn't really

1073
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:17.280
catch on, and probably until a conferences when I started

1074
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:20.880
realizing the amount of money people would pay to get

1075
00:55:20.920 --> 00:55:23.079
into a conference to hear someone preach the word of God.

1076
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:27.800
That's when I really started going, I'm having some issues.

1077
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:30.320
And I think really the first time it really hit

1078
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:34.800
me was in when I lived in Bellevue, Nebraska and

1079
00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:38.760
the Assemblies of God Church and Bellevview, Nebraska, large Assemblies

1080
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:43.400
of God church Christian concert was going to happen. Steven

1081
00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:47.199
Curtis Chapman was coming to Bellevue and Nebraska and they

1082
00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:51.000
were playing in this church, and I thought, I'll get tickets.

1083
00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:54.000
And now this was in the nineteen nineties, ladies and gentlemen,

1084
00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:57.320
and I think the tickets was like fifty dollars a

1085
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:01.960
person to get inside a church, to get inside a

1086
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:05.719
church to see this conference. Now with a family, I

1087
00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:07.239
was like, this is going to cost me, like, you know,

1088
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:08.480
two hundred.

1089
00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:11.000
Dollars, Well, this is crazy. I can't I was an

1090
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:12.840
airman in the United States Military. I'm like, there's no

1091
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:14.280
way to go. There's no way I can go.

1092
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.760
But at one hand, they meant it it was come

1093
00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:19.039
here Stephen Curtis Chapman, minister. So I got to pay

1094
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.519
two hundred dollars to be ministered to the whole thing.

1095
00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:23.760
And I already is having problems because by this point,

1096
00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.639
even as a teenager, I'd volunteered for Carmen who was

1097
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:29.360
a famous Christian musician, and he didn't charge anyone for

1098
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:30.039
his concerts.

1099
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:31.840
And he had a huge stage.

1100
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:34.000
I don't put together the stage, put together the sound

1101
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:38.400
of quick I volunteered. I was a huge dancers, lights,

1102
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:42.400
the whole thing, huge production. He took a love offering,

1103
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:44.280
but he didn't charge people money to get in. And

1104
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:46.440
I'm like, okay, well wait a minute. Something doesn't make

1105
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:50.119
sense here. So we started questioning it. So we contacted

1106
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.800
the church and we found out that the church charges

1107
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:56.039
money for Stephen Curtis Chapman to use their building. I'm like, wait,

1108
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:59.199
so the church now charges people to use their building

1109
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.239
the minister, so the church now was operating a side

1110
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:06.039
hustle where they rent out their building. That sounds problematic.

1111
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:08.280
And then when we contact I think Stephen Curtis Chapman,

1112
00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:10.599
we got We've got some replies from like a managers

1113
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.599
and they try to argue, you know, well the ministry

1114
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:15.320
is free, but I mean it costs money for this,

1115
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:16.800
and it costs money for them, and it's like the

1116
00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:21.039
whole thing is like, well, something I'm not understanding. And

1117
00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:22.880
I think then they said, well it costs money to

1118
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:24.360
use the building, and I'm like, well, why is it

1119
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:25.760
costing money to use the building?

1120
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:26.920
It's a stinking church.

1121
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:29.400
Why wouldn't the church say you can use our building

1122
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:31.280
for free because we want you to minister to people.

1123
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:33.360
And how can we cover the cost so that we

1124
00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:35.639
can get people into the building for cheaper because we

1125
00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:37.960
want the building packed so that minister people can be

1126
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:40.039
ministered to by his music. I mean, the whole thing

1127
00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:41.960
just seemed like no everyone was in it to get

1128
00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:43.800
a piece of the pie and make some money. So

1129
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:46.599
that's when I started having some major issues with it.

1130
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:53.440
But the industry, the Christian celebrity, look, you can if

1131
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:56.320
you condemn it, then you better look at yourself. That's

1132
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:58.719
what I'm going to say. People will look at like

1133
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.199
a Joe Ostein or or a Stephen Ferdach or name

1134
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:04.119
some of these famous pastors, and they're like.

1135
00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.840
These celebrities pastors made me sick, right, and it's like, but.

1136
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:13.480
You're supporting the same industry. You're just supporting the industry

1137
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:22.239
that's promoting your favorite celebrities, not those celebrities. Either the

1138
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:27.400
whole system is wrong, or you can't, or you can't.

1139
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:28.599
Then pick and choose.

1140
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:30.960
Either either the whole system is right or the whole

1141
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:35.360
system is wrong. It's kind of an either or, And

1142
00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:43.360
now everybody's all shocked. Now I can't the first last broadcast,

1143
00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.639
we did claim that Steve Lawson's doctrine about the church

1144
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:48.519
was wrong. So that's why I send that's just that

1145
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:51.639
was ridiculous. We've already talked about that. The issue here

1146
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:56.719
is we've reached a point where a man can just

1147
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:59.599
get paid weekly to show up, preach a sermon, and

1148
00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:03.559
leave and he's not the pastor, he's not an elder,

1149
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:05.119
he's not even a member of any church.

1150
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:05.679
It appears.

1151
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:11.199
Now you may not think there's a problem with that.

1152
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:15.079
Now that's that's a whole different issue. Is that wrong

1153
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:17.760
or is that right? We could have that discussion. We

1154
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:21.760
could have that discussion. I just know that that if

1155
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:24.440
that's the case, then what standard do you hold them

1156
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:26.800
to because they're just they're just paid to come in

1157
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:32.800
and preach a message, all right, lots of questions, lots

1158
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:35.239
of I don't have any good answers, but there you

1159
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:40.599
have it. You can you can take whatever you want.

1160
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:43.440
Let me just state this at the end. I know

1161
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:46.800
that article they quoted offered that they have confirmation about

1162
00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:49.599
some of these facts being true. I don't know yet

1163
00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:52.159
if it's true or not true. Ever, once you, I

1164
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:56.519
just taking this controversy about Steve Lawson, and I'm just

1165
00:59:56.679 --> 00:59:59.480
using it to have these broader conversations. I'm not getting

1166
00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:02.599
caught up in all all of that. Right, everyone can

1167
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:05.760
have that conversation, but the deeper issues are what we

1168
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:06.559
need to discuss.

1169
01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.280
The deeper issues, all right.

1170
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:11.760
And some of the people criticizing him again are saying

1171
01:00:11.800 --> 01:00:15.159
crazy things like you know basically that you fall because

1172
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:19.159
your doctrine is wrong, and which completely misses the understanding

1173
01:00:19.239 --> 01:00:21.079
of sinful nature, which then they would have then a

1174
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:22.599
wrong doctrine about the sinful.

1175
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.719
Nature, which is just ironic, see the whole thing.

1176
01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:27.039
So, and even in this case, this person, I would

1177
01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:29.440
be much more in agreement with and everything he's saying.

1178
01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:31.480
I would be much more in agreement with a lot

1179
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:40.239
of the things he is saying but yeah, now he

1180
01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:42.920
talks about the accountability again, I still think, what does

1181
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:43.599
that even mean?

1182
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:48.079
I love that we need accountability for what If.

1183
01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:51.039
You're a part of a denomination, you can literally all

1184
01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:53.199
the people can split from a denomination and go form

1185
01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:54.119
another denomination.

1186
01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:56.480
So where's the accountability?

1187
01:00:56.559 --> 01:01:00.400
Well, you gotta have good why anybody can leave your

1188
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:02.800
denomination at anytime and go to any other one star.

1189
01:01:03.159 --> 01:01:06.519
I remember a church, and in fact, i'll end with this,

1190
01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:09.719
we talk about accountability. There are members in my church

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01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:13.280
who their previous church was located here in Applene, Texas.

1192
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It no longer exists.

1193
01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:17.119
It fell apart, There was a church split, everything fell apart.

1194
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:20.519
But they and their church had to exercise church discipline

1195
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:23.480
over one of their teaching elders because he started teaching

1196
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:28.599
open theism right, So they confront confrontation. He wouldn't repent. Basically,

1197
01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:29.880
acted thought he was right.

1198
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:30.519
They were wrong.

1199
01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:34.360
They church disciplined him the very next sunday. The very

1200
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:37.320
next sunday, he was already in another church and I

1201
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:38.920
believe already teaching.

1202
01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:43.400
Well accountability.

1203
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:45.960
Well, I guess you held him accountable, but he just

1204
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:47.119
went right to another church.

1205
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:48.119
It didn't matter.

1206
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:50.880
He said, Well, accountability. Well, how are you going to

1207
01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:52.119
get accountability to worry?

1208
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:54.159
How? How? How do you how are you going to

1209
01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:54.760
even do that?

1210
01:01:56.360 --> 01:01:56.480
Like?

1211
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:58.000
What does they even look like? I mean, I don't

1212
01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:58.880
even know what that means.

1213
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:01.199
Well, you need to denominate so that people can leave

1214
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:05.719
that denomination and start another one. Okay, what is that

1215
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.239
these independent churches are so wrong? Okay, so they need

1216
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.000
to be under some hierarchy and there's some control, but

1217
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:15.800
at some point they can rebel against that hierarchy.

1218
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:21.360
Right, So yeah, I think accountability is an illusion.

1219
01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:26.039
You can create some but I mean, yeah, the point

1220
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:28.599
is is, especially in the non Catholic world, we believe

1221
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:31.119
that I read the Bible, I determine if it's sure

1222
01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:33.519
or false, and I'm the one who judges whether what's

1223
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.760
being preached is true or false. And yeah, I mean

1224
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:38.920
it comes very much down to an individualistic kind of thing.

1225
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:39.960
All right, thanks for listening.

1226
01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:45.280
It's now fast approaching ten forty much more I could say,

1227
01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:48.159
but we've gone an hour, so I think we've covered

1228
01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:51.360
about everything we can cover. Now you can process it

1229
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:52.320
and have your own debates.

1230
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:54.039
Thanks for listening. God bless